Breath meditation vs space meditation

Discussion of meditation in the Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions.
master of puppets
Posts: 1649
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by master of puppets »

anagarika wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 am I find that serenity happens when you let go of even of the idea of "creating" serenity.
exactly.
:applause:
for this;
(my own method)
1- find the lofty goal,
2- embrace it
3- if it is compatible with the practice,
4- your life turn out to be a 24/7 practice
without an effort.

I've discover this two days ago.

:namaste:
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PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9441
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

master of puppets wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:50 am
anagarika wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 am I find that serenity happens when you let go of even of the idea of "creating" serenity.
exactly.
:applause:
for this;
(my own method)
1- find the lofty goal,
2- embrace it
3- if it is compatible with the practice,
4- your life turn out to be a 24/7 practice
without an effort.

I've discover this two days ago.

:namaste:
I don’t know what ‘the lofty goal’ means.

My understanding about shamatha meditation has always been this:
Everything we do in life is striving. That’s basically the essence of dukkha. It’s one of the defining features of the human realm. We always want something, and that is what desire is. Desire isn’t specifically “I want sex” or “I want money”. It’s the always aspect of our human existence. This desire is driven by ego-clinging (self grasping). There’s a “me” we imagine, that is restless and wants something new to happen.

Shamatha meditation is just the opposite of that. You allow yourself to just sit. No grasping, no goal, no preferences. It’s kind of stupid looking. But it’s not stupid at all, because it allowed you to watch your mind and see just how much craving is actually going on. All sorts of thoughts come up because your mind is suddenly very uncomfortable with you not grasping for something.

So, you watch the breath, you return to watching the breath over and over again while your mind keeps channel-surfing through all of your thoughts trying to get you to stop and get absorbed in some mental tv show: what you did yesterday/Wouldn’t it be cool if…/that driver who cut me off/ all these thoughts pop up like flipping through tv channels.

Eventually the mind gets tired of channel surfing and when that happens, when the mind has settled down, you sit it luminous awareness, just vividly aware of everything, but without any grasping at all. When there’s no more grasping, you are satisfied. It’s like being satisfied after a big delicious meal, where you just lean back and go “ahhh” because you don’t need another bite. It totally hit the spot.

The cessation of dukkha is liberation. It’s not full buddhahood or final nirvana, but it’s a kind of freedom within this lifetime, and you can always go back to it by watching the breath.

The thing is, don’t try to make a goal of that, or it won’t happen. You just have to stop all the “trying to get” patterns that we are all so conditioned with, and just sit and watch. As long as you are always trying to get from here to there, you aren’t being “here”.

Of course, once this peace of mind has become stabilized, you can go further with it. But again, you have to be careful not to make it into a thing you are grasping for.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
master of puppets
Posts: 1649
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:08 pm
master of puppets wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:50 am
anagarika wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:35 am I find that serenity happens when you let go of even of the idea of "creating" serenity.
exactly.
:applause:
for this;
(my own method)
1- find the lofty goal,
2- embrace it
3- if it is compatible with the practice,
4- your life turn out to be a 24/7 practice
without an effort.

I've discover this two days ago.

:namaste:
I don’t know what ‘the lofty goal’ means.

My understanding about shamatha meditation has always been this:
Everything we do in life is striving. That’s basically the essence of dukkha. It’s one of the defining features of the human realm. We always want something, and that is what desire is. Desire isn’t specifically “I want sex” or “I want money”. It’s the always aspect of our human existence. This desire is driven by ego-clinging (self grasping). There’s a “me” we imagine, that is restless and wants something new to happen.

Shamatha meditation is just the opposite of that. You allow yourself to just sit. No grasping, no goal, no preferences. It’s kind of stupid looking. But it’s not stupid at all, because it allowed you to watch your mind and see just how much craving is actually going on. All sorts of thoughts come up because your mind is suddenly very uncomfortable with you not grasping for something.

So, you watch the breath, you return to watching the breath over and over again while your mind keeps channel-surfing through all of your thoughts trying to get you to stop and get absorbed in some mental tv show: what you did yesterday/Wouldn’t it be cool if…/that driver who cut me off/ all these thoughts pop up like flipping through tv channels.

Eventually the mind gets tired of channel surfing and when that happens, when the mind has settled down, you sit it luminous awareness, just vividly aware of everything, but without any grasping at all. When there’s no more grasping, you are satisfied. It’s like being satisfied after a big delicious meal, where you just lean back and go “ahhh” because you don’t need another bite. It totally hit the spot.

The cessation of dukkha is liberation. It’s not full buddhahood or final nirvana, but it’s a kind of freedom within this lifetime, and you can always go back to it by watching the breath.

The thing is, don’t try to make a goal of that, or it won’t happen. You just have to stop all the “trying to get” patterns that we are all so conditioned with, and just sit and watch. As long as you are always trying to get from here to there, you aren’t being “here”.

Of course, once this peace of mind has become stabilized, you can go further with it. But again, you have to be careful not to make it into a thing you are grasping for.
Fully accept.

Thank you. life is nested. you find a way, you get out another hole.

consist of words and letters. in this manner all is same.

here just needed to be able to look from just a click above from to the things.

if you can be able to pull your mind one step further than all, the problems getting solved.

may be this is a kind of trick but it works for the mind.

mind stops fighting with the words but focus on his primary target.

I've find a way for this. so ı 've said that ı win over myself.

my new technique simply as follows;

1-find a lofty goal
2- embrace it
3- if it is compatible with the practice,
4- the practice becomes 24/7 automatically,
while your mind is busy with it's target,
without an effort.


will explain further...
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:08 pm
Everything we do in life is striving. That’s basically the essence of dukkha. It’s one of the defining features of the human realm. We always want something, and that is what desire is. Desire isn’t specifically “I want sex” or “I want money”. It’s the always aspect of our human existence. This desire is driven by ego-clinging (self grasping). There’s a “me” we imagine, that is restless and wants something new to happen.
Shamatha meditation is just the opposite of that. You allow yourself to just sit. No grasping, no goal, no preferences.
Exactly, this is the true meaning of "vossaga" for me. Letting go not only of the grosser desires, but pretty much of all kinds of bhava-tanha, which includes the desire to be peaceful, to attain jhanas, to plunge into samadhi. When I do breath meditation, I sometimes think to myself right at the start: "Cool, now the mind has the freedom to get so comfortable that it doesn´t have to bother even about being peaceful." It creates the mindset of reverting to something completely natural, not going some exotic places.

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:08 pm Eventually the mind gets tired of channel surfing and when that happens, when the mind has settled down, you sit it luminous awareness, just vividly aware of everything, but without any grasping at all.
There is a very heated debate, at least in the Theravada world, about where to go from here. Some teachers argue that what you described above is the goal - a non-grasping awareness, clear, not in a trance, simply knowing everything. But then there are other teachers who insist that this is just a preliminary step and that one should go for full immersion, which means completely shutting off the senses and sort of imploding (not to a single point, but simply turning attention inwards). It can be very confusing because some very prominent figures (Ajahn Brahm, for instance) are really insistent about these hardcore, absorbed jhanas. They seem to suggest there is no way to liberation around them. And yet some other highly respected teachers (Ajahn Chah, who, ironically, happens to have been the teacher of the said Ajahn Brahm), said that absorption is not necessary and can be an obstacle. One can then be quite at loss what to go for since there are contradicting opinions of undoubtedly highly accomplished Theras.

My experience is that if I try to develop qualities of absorption and don´t get far enough, there is a sense of "being hindered by the world" and this creates a temporary aversion towards the senses. However, if I do get far enough, the result is an extraordinary brightness of mind, sometimes even exuberance and surge of energy, which can at times, paradoxically, lead to temporary increase in sense desire :D Not in the gross sense desires, but in those subtle ones. It is thus very important to stay mindful even after the session has ended.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

anagarika wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:34 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:08 pm Eventually the mind gets tired of channel surfing and when that happens, when the mind has settled down, you sit it luminous awareness, just vividly aware of everything, but without any grasping at all.
There is a very heated debate, at least in the Theravada world, about where to go from here. Some teachers argue that what you described above is the goal - a non-grasping awareness, clear, not in a trance, simply knowing everything. But then there are other teachers who insist that this is just a preliminary step and that one should go for full immersion, which means completely shutting off the senses and sort of imploding (not to a single point, but simply turning attention inwards). It can be very confusing because some very prominent figures (Ajahn Brahm, for instance) are really insistent about these hardcore, absorbed jhanas. They seem to suggest there is no way to liberation around them. And yet some other highly respected teachers (Ajahn Chah, who, ironically, happens to have been the teacher of the said Ajahn Brahm), said that absorption is not necessary and can be an obstacle. One can then be quite at loss what to go for since there are contradicting opinions of undoubtedly highly accomplished Theras.

My experience is that if I try to develop qualities of absorption and don´t get far enough, there is a sense of "being hindered by the world" and this creates a temporary aversion towards the senses. However, if I do get far enough, the result is an extraordinary brightness of mind, sometimes even exuberance and surge of energy, which can at times, paradoxically, lead to temporary increase in sense desire :D Not in the gross sense desires, but in those subtle ones. It is thus very important to stay mindful even after the session has ended.
I think for some people it’s one way and for others it’s another way.
Also, it might be one way for you when you are 25 and another way when you are 65.
Knowing one’s own mind, I think, is the most important thing regardless.
For example, I know what my limitations are. I know what practices are going to be transformative and which are just going through the motions.
There’s that old saying, ‘when the student is ready, the master appears’. I think it’s a lot like that. The more honest you are with yourself, the more ‘ready’ you are for whatever is appropriate. Doesn’t that make sense?

A particular vajrayana practice has recently come to my life. I know that a year ago it wouldn’t have meant anything to me…what I mean is, being able to relate to it at all. But I recently found, among my things, an image of this particular deity that I knew nothing about at all, and something in my mind said to research it, and it was like, ‘YES! YES! This is the practice I need right now.’ So, I am hoping for a transmission to show up, and I’m sure that it will, at some auspicious moment.

So, with meditation it’s the same, I believe. We are always in such a hurry these days. But starting off with years of just breathing meditation, without taking it to the ‘next level’, this, I understand, used to be quite common. Dharma practice is like gardening. You can’t really rush it. In gardening, plants grow slowly and you have to tend to them and be patient. You can’t just constantly flood a tomato patch with water and think they will grow faster. It will just rot their roots if you do that. Likewise, our minds are so wrapped up, it’s like tangled string. It takes a long time for most people to reach a point where they aren’t caught up in grasping. So, probably both of those monk’s views are right.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
master of puppets
Posts: 1649
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:52 pm

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by master of puppets »

master of puppets wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 6:30 pm
Fully accept.

Thank you. life is nested. you find a way, you get out another hole.

consist of words and letters. in this manner all is same.

here just needed to be able to look from just a click above from to the things.

if you can be able to pull your mind one step further than all, the problems getting solved.

may be this is a kind of trick but it works for the mind.

mind stops fighting with the words but focus on his primary target.

I've find a way for this. so ı 've said that ı win over myself.

my new technique simply as follows;

1-find a lofty goal
2- embrace it
3- if it is compatible with the practice,
4- the practice becomes 24/7 automatically,
while your mind is busy with it's target,
without an effort.


will explain further...
It is the session mind.

You have to find your own lofty mind. that you be in unity with it. I've find mine and myself.

It is just one word.

When ı find it ı immediately decide to set, arrange, measure, organize all my works and life with through it.
from my car colour, to simple dialogues..

I've no doubt.

when focus on that just word; everything falls.

yet there auto practice begins.

no need to think about practice.

It is very easy, so is the practice.

it is new.so working on.

will share my experiences..

🙏
anagarika
Posts: 158
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:45 am

Re: Breath meditation vs space meditation

Post by anagarika »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:00 pm
I think for some people it’s one way and for others it’s another way.
Also, it might be one way for you when you are 25 and another way when you are 65.
Knowing one’s own mind, I think, is the most important thing regardless.
Yes, the idea of "skilful means", i.e. meditation tools appropriate to the current stage of one´s practice. This was something which was very much stressed in the Thai forest tradition that I try to follow and which, I believe, got lost in the Abhidammic and commentarial traditions that tend to be very technique-oriented and methodologically rigid. However, talking about concentration jhana specifically, these are probably best developed before the age of 65 as long as the body is still fit enough for long sits :D

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:00 pm
The more honest you are with yourself, the more ‘ready’ you are for whatever is appropriate. Doesn’t that make sense?
It certainly makes sense to me - it requies some discerment, but I agree that the real meditation starts when the mind can itself decide where it wants to go and what it wants to do in the given session. The more I read the suttas, the more I see how many possible approaches and meditations were actually suggested by the Buddha.

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:00 pm So, with meditation it’s the same, I believe. We are always in such a hurry these days. But starting off with years of just breathing meditation, without taking it to the ‘next level’, this, I understand, used to be quite common.
It is a gradual cultivation, but many people get easily excited by the idea of jhanas and other supernormal states. I mean, they sound absolutely fantastic, don´t they? And everybody knows the joy of immersion - mostly from sensual pleasures, but it is something which we all seek out to a degree. Most people can immerse themselves only in sex or TV shows, but the samadhi aspect is there no matter how gross the object. So it´s kind of natural for meditators to try to force the samadhi in the beginning, only to find later on that it cannot be really forced. I´d say there is no need to push things, the "next level", at least for me, starts to happen as soon as there is at least some rapture and joy that can serve as a substitute for sense pleasures (almost like a "passive income").
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