What exactly is a deva??

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ToddGibbsop
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What exactly is a deva??

Post by ToddGibbsop »

I know devas were once humans and I’ve heard that the word deva means god. The thing is that I thought the definition of a god was supposed to be infinite and all powerful , but devas aren’t all powerful and they don’t live for ever. Is one not supposed to take the name translation literally and devas are actually just very powerful spirits. Please tell me your knowledge of this?
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Malcolm »

ToddGibbsop wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:55 pm I know devas were once humans and I’ve heard that the word deva means god. The thing is that I thought the definition of a god was supposed to be infinite and all powerful , but devas aren’t all powerful and they don’t live for ever. Is one not supposed to take the name translation literally and devas are actually just very powerful spirits. Please tell me your knowledge of this?
A sentient being who inhabits the highest part of the three realms, the upper part of the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm.

They are not "spirits" per se.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Hazel »

As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Kim O'Hara »

ToddGibbsop wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:55 pm I know devas were once humans and I’ve heard that the word deva means god. The thing is that I thought the definition of a god was supposed to be infinite and all powerful, but devas aren’t all powerful and they don’t live for ever. Is one not supposed to take the name translation literally and devas are actually just very powerful spirits. Please tell me your knowledge of this?
Your definition of a god is only applicable within the monotheistic traditions. None of the multiple gods in other traditions - ancient Greek, Roman, Aztec, Hindu, etc, - is infinite or all-powerful.

And "god" (little "g") is not a particularly close translation of "deva", anyway. There isn't an English word that corresponds exactly, so some of us use "god" and some choose not to translate the word but to learn what a deva is and does, just as we had to learn "crocodile" or "politician".

:namaste:
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Miorita »

Deva would be a being with enough purifications to access the heavens/higher realms as described in the Vedae.

Devotchka means girl in Russian.
дѣ́вочка (dě́vočka) – Pre-reform orthography (1918)
Etymology: де́ва (déva) +‎ -очка (-očka)

Then,
дѣ́ва (dě́va) – Pre-reform orthography (1918)
Etymology: Inherited from Proto-Slavic *děva.
де́ва • (déva)
(poetic) maiden, maid, virgin
And "очка" is a diminutive suffix to the root.
The root in the Indo-Eruopean language group:
Etymology
From Proto-Indo-European *dʰeh₁(y)- (“to suck, suckle”), whence also Latin femina, Hittite 𒋼𒂊𒋫𒀭 (te-e-ta-an), Sanskrit धयति (dháyati), Gothic 𐌳𐌰𐌳𐌳𐌾𐌰𐌽 (daddjan, “suckle”) and Old Armenian դիեմ (diem).

Original meaning was thus "one that can suckle, nurse". Compare *dojiti (“to give milk, nurse, breastfeed”).

Noun
*dě̀va - maiden, girl
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... /d%C4%9Bva

Leaving the diminutive aside, you have a prototype of a being pure, virginal in the sense of impresive as expression, appearance.
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Aemilius
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

I have heard it explained that the word deva comes from the root meaning of sky. Some words of this kind for "sky" are found in finno-ugrian languages like "taevo" and "taivas".

Thus spake wikipedia:
" Another example concerns the root "sky", which formed a vṛddhi derivative in this way:
*dyew- > Ancient Greek Ζεύς (Zeús), Latin diēs "day", Sanskrit dyú "sky, day".
*deyw- > Latin dīvus "divine", Old Prussian deiwis, Sanskrit devá "deity"."


But there are also the derivatives from "deh" with the meaning of giving. And thus we get "dana", "donor", etc...

"Root
*deh₃- (perfective)
to give

Derived terms
Terms derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *deh₃-

*déh₃-t ~ *dh₃-ént (athematic root aorist)
*dé-deh₃-ti ~ *dé-dh₃-n̥ti (athematic reduplicated present)
*déh₃-r̥ ~ *dh₃-éns[1]
*déh₃n-o-m
*déh₃n-u-s ~ *dh₃n-éw-s
Proto-Celtic: *dānus
Old Irish: dán (“gift, bestowal, skill”)
Middle Welsh: dawn (“gift”)
*dóh₃n-i-s
Proto-Balto-Slavic: *dōˀnis
Lithuanian: duõnis (“gift”)"

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... o-European
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by SkyFox »

Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:10 am
Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
1. The creator theory negates dependent arising.

2. For there to be a creator, something must be established as having some kind of existence which is not subject to change (because if a phenomenon changes, then it is no longer what was created). Thus, the creation theory negates the (Buddhist) premise that all phenomena undergo constant change.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?
The potential of mind is infinite.
Space is infinite.
But “all powerful” doesn’t apply in this context.
EMPTIFUL.
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Aemilius
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:10 am
Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
Bhagavan Shakyamuni says in the Rohitassa sutta:
"Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos.”

To Rohitassa, Rohitassa Sutta (AN 4:45), transl. Thanissaro Bhikkhu
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN4_45.html

See also the Loka sutta: "Near Sāvatthī. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: 'I will teach you the origination of the world & the ending of the world. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.' " https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN12_44.html
The World, Loka Sutta (SN 12:44)

In Mahayana the coming into being of worlds is discussed for example in The Flower Ornament Sutra, chapter 4. The Formation of Worlds.
And in The Lankavatara Sutra, Chapter Two, XXXI, On Causation (Six Kinds) and the Rise of Existence, (translation of D. T. Suzuki).

The formation of worlds is also explained in the Abhidharma, in the context of the time periods (kalpas).
Last edited by Aemilius on Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by SkyFox »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:11 pm
SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:10 am
Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
For there to be a creator, something must be established as having some kind of existence which is not subject to change (because if a phenomenon changes, then it is no longer what was created). Thus, the creation theory negates the (Buddhist) premise that all phenomena undergo constant change.
:good: But I imagine if such a being existed it would be a concept beyond any logic. It would be exempted from any rules or laws; a phenomenon that cannot be described or understood. I mean we barely know what's at the bottom of the sea. Could we, with our limited understanding and knowledge, deduce, with absolute certainty, that such an existence doesn't exist, even with the sutra?

Honestly, I'm not trying to cause a schism in the sangha :rolling: But just like there many things about the universe that is beyond our grasp, I believe, with certainty, that there are many mysteries and secrets that the Buddha did not felt the need to reveal, as it was unnecessary to the path, or maybe that's the hopeful kid in me with his wild imagination :twothumbsup:
Last edited by SkyFox on Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

SkyFox wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 2:30 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:11 pm
SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:10 am

This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
For there to be a creator, something must be established as having some kind of existence which is not subject to change (because if a phenomenon changes, then it is no longer what was created). Thus, the creation theory negates the (Buddhist) premise that all phenomena undergo constant change.
:good: But I imagine if such a being existed it would be a concept beyond any logic. It would be exempted from any rules or laws; a phenomenon that cannot be described or understood. I mean we barely know what's at the bottom of the sea. Could we, with our limited understanding and knowledge, deduce, with absolute certainty, that such an existence doesn't exist, even with the sutra?

Honestly, I'm not trying to cause a schism in the sangha :rolling: But just like there many things about the universe that is beyond our grasp, I believe, with certainty, that there are many mysteries and secrets that the Buddha did not felt the need to reveal, as it was unnecessary to the path, or maybe that's the hopeful kid in me with his wild imagination :twothumbsup:
Chandrakirti says that in the Abhidharma Buddha teaches that world is real, more or less. And that in the Prajñaparamita and Cittamatra sutras he teaches that the world is illusory or non-existent. Lankavatara and Perfection of Wisdom sutras are hard to grasp, but according to Buddhist scholars their meaning is that because the world is unreal, illusory, like a mirage, mind-made etc.., it cannot have a "creator". Beings minds and karma in the six lokas create the world.
If there are no independent or outer objects, how there be a creator?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by SkyFox »

Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:20 am according to Buddhist scholars their meaning is that because the world is unreal, illusory, like a mirage, mind-made etc.., it cannot have a "creator". Beings minds and karma in the six lokas create the world.
If there are no independent or outer objects, how there be a creator?
But these "scholars" are also human and thus are limited by human knowledge, understanding, logic and their interpretation of the sutra, which is up for debate because it was not written by the Buddha himself and only after his death, so how can we objectively say that these scholars are right about everything? To sum it up: If the Buddha was here right now and answered this question directly, I wouldn't hesitate 100 percent in believing him. But this is one thing where I choose to keep an open mind and is on my bucket list to ask the Buddha when I see him :twothumbsup:
Last edited by SkyFox on Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by SardonicHerzog »

the language part of this thread was really interesting, thanks
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

SkyFox wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:00 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 9:20 am according to Buddhist scholars their meaning is that because the world is unreal, illusory, like a mirage, mind-made etc.., it cannot have a "creator". Beings minds and karma in the six lokas create the world.
If there are no independent or outer objects, how there be a creator?
But these "scholars" are also human and thus are limited by human knowledge, understanding, logic and their interpretation of the sutra, which is up for debate because it was not written by the Buddha himself and only after his death, so how can we objectively say that these scholars are right about everything? To sum it up: If the Buddha was here right now and answered this question directly, I wouldn't hesitate 100 percent in believing him. But this is one thing where I choose to keep an open mind and is on my bucket list to ask the Buddha when I see him :twothumbsup:
That is a valid point, but how can you know a Buddha? -if you would happen to meet him. According to the Diamond sutra Buddhas cannot be known from their physical marks. They can be known through the teaching of Dharma. Buddhist tradition exists at all, because there have always been followers who have attained the state of realization called bodhi or enlightenment. The tradition is purified and kept alive through the constant re-enlightenment of hundreds, thousands and hundredthousands enlightened persons through the ages. Their wisdom and knowledge is also true and accurate.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Kai lord »

ToddGibbsop wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 2:55 pm I know devas were once humans and I’ve heard that the word deva means god. The thing is that I thought the definition of a god was supposed to be infinite and all powerful , but devas aren’t all powerful and they don’t live for ever. Is one not supposed to take the name translation literally and devas are actually just very powerful spirits. Please tell me your knowledge of this?
The devas of Buddhism are a very complicated race as they exists in 27 to 28 different realms. Here's the following breakdown.

Desire realm devas and Asuras belong to the same race of beings. They have a body that are not made from carbon element and can reproduce. Marvel does a good job out of presenting those devas as aliens from high tech civilizations if one minus off the superhero and hollywood stuffs

Devas of the form realm, are beings similar to angels that are made of light or those archons mentioned in gnosticism, as you are heavily influenced by abrahamic myths and legends and you should have no problems imagining them.

Then you have those devas that are in constant vegetative state and deep slumber, very similar to the Azathoth which upon awakening, will die and descend to lower realms.

Finally devas of the formless realm, have consciousness extend to farthest reaches of their respective realms and acts like an invisible and all pervading energy field. A bit similar to brahman and other similar concepts.

Of course, all these are my non serious, very casual and brief summary of what devas are. Things are a lot more complicated than that.
Last edited by Kai lord on Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

Buddha says in Gaddula sutta that existence has no beginning and that mind has limitless creative capacity. There are two suttas with this name, this is from the second:

The Leash (2)
Gaddūla Sutta (SN 22:100):
Near Sāvatthī. There the Blessed One said: “Monks, from an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, although beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on.
...

“Monks, have you ever seen a moving-picture show?”

“Yes, lord.”

“That moving-picture show was created by the mind. And this mind is even more variegated than a moving-picture show. Thus one should reflect on one’s mind with every moment: ‘For a long time has this mind been defiled by passion, aversion, & delusion.’ From the defilement of the mind are beings defiled. From the purification of the mind are beings purified.

“Monks, I can imagine no one group of beings more variegated than that of common animals. Common animals are created by mind. And the mind is even more variegated than common animals. Thus one should reflect on one’s mind with every moment: ‘For a long time has this mind been defiled by passion, aversion, & delusion.’ From the defilement of the mind are beings defiled. From the purification of the mind are beings purified.

“It’s just as when—there being dye, lac, yellow orpiment, indigo, or crimson—a dyer or painter would paint the picture of a woman or a man, complete in all its parts, on a well-polished panel or wall, or on a piece of cloth; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, when creating, creates nothing but form… feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness."
...

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_100.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Kai lord »

SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:10 am
Hazel wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:47 pm As far as I know, there's nothing "infinite and all powerful" in Buddhism. Am I wrong?

There is certainly no permanent, omnipotent being in the Abrahamic religion sense.
This is what I'm also curious about,too. Did the Buddha ever explicitly say that there wasn't such a creator? Or did he simply say that the one Brahma who thought himself as almighty wasn't a the creator?

Regardless, I would imagine that even if such a creator did exist the Buddha would never teach about it, as such a teaching would only lead people astray.
Buddha had two mentors from Samkhya which is non theist vedic dualistic school of thought. Basically before His enlightenment, Shakyamuni learned doctrines of Samkhya and mediation from them, He even achieved great success and attained the highest formless Jhana.

At any rate, one can easily tell that Shakyamuni did share much of the atheistic influences coming from Samkhya after all, why would He propose a Creator in his Dharma after witnessing his two mentors achieving high spiritual attainments with the help of a creator and walking the entirety of his path and achieving Enlightenment without the need for one?
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Aemilius »

I have never heard Arada Kalama and Udraka Ramputra being described as Samkhya or followers of the Vedas. They are usually described as leaders of the Shramana schools of ascetics, i.e. non-brahmin and non-vedic schools. Buddha himself rejected the authority of the Vedas and brahmins quite strongly.
Arada Kalama, Udraka Ramaputra or their followers are not called brahmins in the Lalitavistara sutra. Arada Kalama is said to be staying with a great assembly of Sravakas and three hundred disciples (?). Udraka Ramaputra is said to have seven hundred disciples (no mention of Sravakas).
Last edited by Aemilius on Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: What exactly is a deva??

Post by Kai lord »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 1:11 pm I have never heard Arada Kalama and Udraka Ramputra being described as Samkhya or followers of the Vedas. They are usually described as leaders of the Shramana schools of ascetics, i.e. non-brahmin and non-vedic schools. Buddha himself rejected the authority of the Vedas and brahmins quite strongly.
Arada Kalama, Udraka Ramaputra or their followers are not called brahmins in the Lalitavistara sutra. Arada Kalama is said to be staying with a great assembly of Sravakas and three hundred disciples (?). Udraka Ramaputra is said to have seven hundred disciples (no mention of Sravakas).
I did some digging, here's the textual source and contexts that hints on their Samkhya origins:

Visits to Ārāḍa and Udraka
16. “Eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body—these are called faculties of intellection. For the faculty of mind the two meanings are combined: both action and that called intellection. Nature and change are a cause, and the knower of the cause[2] is the self.
This quote said to be uttered by Arada, is close to Samkhya's doctrine.
17. “The seer Kapila and his retinue of disciples studied the important meaning of this self and obtained deliverance. That Kapila is Prajāpati now.
And Sage Kaplia widely regarded as the legendary founder of Samkhya. Over here, Arada clearly mentioned him in high regard. Uddaka repeated what Alara said but added his belief in higher dhyana attainment of non perception and perception.

Some Buddhist scholars also feel that way about Arada as shown below.

Samkhya
"The ancient Buddhist Aśvaghoṣa (in his Buddha-Carita) describes Āḷāra Kālāma, the teacher of the young Buddha (ca. 420 B.C.E.) as following an archaic form of Sāṅkhya."
Nevertheless its very likely Buddhism, Jain and Samkhya ended influencing one another before arriving at their current form.
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