HYT Wangs

Malcolm
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Malcolm »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.
This idea isn't universal. Only the Geluk school maintains this idea.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:27 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.
This idea isn't universal. Only the Geluk school maintains this idea.
What should then non-gelugpas do after taking HYT from HH Dalailama?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:27 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.
This idea isn't universal. Only the Geluk school maintains this idea.
What should then non-gelugpas do after taking HYT from HH Dalailama?
I would reckon do what one always does when taking a wang from someone who is not one's main teacher: Try to meet the requirements HHDL explicitly formulated, and as far as everything else goes, follow the advice of your main teacher(s) instead of drawing on what the general Geluk framework may provide. This is what I am going to do, in any case.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:27 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.
This idea isn't universal. Only the Geluk school maintains this idea.
What should then non-gelugpas do after taking HYT from HH Dalailama?
They should keep samaya with His Holiness and follow his instructions. In this case, it would be to do six session guru yoga. The previous day, His Holiness also said that his disciples taking the initiation should renew their bodhisattva vows and their tantric vows daily, which six session guru yoga accomplishes.

I would really urge those who took the initiation to follow his direction, as there is now a samaya bond between His Holiness and them and he is now a root guru. We know says is important and it can't be stressed enough in the Geluk tradition. After all, guru yoga is the root of all attainments and one must keep perfect samaya with their guru.

For a long time I stayed away from receiving any HYT initiations in this lineage because I wasn't prepared for commitments up until now.

Hope his answers the question.
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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Terma wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:09 pmThey should keep samaya with His Holiness and follow his instructions. In this case, it would be to do six session guru yoga.
With all due respect, HH did not instruct us to do so during the wang.

Regarding the translation issue: I do not know why there was a discrepancy between the English and the other mentioned versions. But I trust that the person translating from Tibetan to English is someone whom His Holiness finds reliable.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

That is kind of what I have been thinking about. AFAIK I have not noticed HH saying anything about daily practice requirements. I probably missed HH mentioning the daily renewal of vows. However, if I am not mistaken that can be easily done with daily Vajrasattva purification or 35 Buddhas practice and guru yoga. Thus making 6 session guru yoga one of the possible ways of keeping it, however not a practice requirement as it has not been requested from us to do it. But that might be a bit too legalist.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Dharmadale
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Dharmadale »

It is my understanding that (unless otherwise specified) the six-session guru yoga is always part of the commitments of a Gelug HYT empowerment, it's taken as a given which is perhaps why it wasn't explicitly stated.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Dharmadale wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:22 pm It is my understanding that (unless otherwise specified) the six-session guru yoga is always part of the commitments of a Gelug HYT empowerment, it's taken as a given which is perhaps why it wasn't explicitly stated.
Correct. I think that when instructing us on renewing the vows each day, HH was suggesting 6 session Guru Yoga. I will add that when one takes a HYT empowerment in the Gelug lineage, then there are also the samaya's of the five Buddha families ( for which you received empowerment), and these are also fulfilled with 6 session guru yoga.

There was no daily Sadhana requirement or anything else.

Not to worry though, the abbreviated version of the six session guru yoga will ale only about 5 minutes in the morning and 5 minutes in the evening to recite 3 times each, and this would fulfill the requirements. The elaborate version is the best if one can do this, and it is quite do-able as well. It has everything one would need.

Personally, to take a HYT empowerment from HHDL is such a rare opportunity, so it would be best to try to keep the samaya's as much as you possibly can. Let's face it, we are in good hands with HHDL as a Vajra Guru.

Otherwise it is best to establish a connection by taking an initiation in accord with Kriya or Charya tantra classes.
Terma
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:11 pm That is kind of what I have been thinking about. AFAIK I have not noticed HH saying anything about daily practice requirements. I probably missed HH mentioning the daily renewal of vows. However, if I am not mistaken that can be easily done with daily Vajrasattva purification or 35 Buddhas practice and guru yoga. Thus making 6 session guru yoga one of the possible ways of keeping it, however not a practice requirement as it has not been requested from us to do it. But that might be a bit too legalist.
Even if it is the case that Vajrasattva/35 Buddha's confession would suffice I personally think it would be much easier to do the six session guru yoga. Besides, I do not know if they cover the samaya's of the Five Buddha Families.

It is pretty common knowledge that any Gelugpa HYT empowerment comes with the commitment of six session guru yoga.
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

As Malcolm has pointed out in the past it's a unique view to the gelugpas but they say that the Six Session Guru Yoga is the way to fulfill the samayas of the five Buddha families, retake the bodhisattva vows and do the overview of all the vows taken.

Also, Gyalwa Gyatso is a mother tantra practice so comes with those specific commitments but they weren't spelt out in the empowerment.
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Terma
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:11 pm
Also, Gyalwa Gyatso is a mother tantra practice so comes with those specific commitments but they weren't spelt out in the empowerment.
I have not seen a difinitive answer on whether it is mother or father tantra. I think I read when HH previously gave this empowerment he had said it came from the father tantra class, and I think I have seen where it is more common with Guhyasamaja.

But then again, I've seen commentaries suggesting it was mother tantra.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/comme ... lwa-gyatso

"Just a moment ago I said, I think this belongs to the Guhyasamaja group, that means it is possible to practice the Gyalwa Gyatso deity according to Kalachakra or dzog chen, due to the mental disposition of the practitioner. This generally belongs to the Guhyasamaja group. Within that we have Mother Tantra and Father Tantra. Since there is a Father Tantra and a Mother Tantra there must be a Son Tantra, without son we cannot speak of father and mother, can we?

Now you see, Guhyasamaja belongs to Father Tantra, Heruka to Mother Tantra..."

So I'm not really sure.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by jmlee369 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:21 pm With all due respect, HH did not instruct us to do so during the wang.

Regarding the translation issue: I do not know why there was a discrepancy between the English and the other mentioned versions. But I trust that the person translating from Tibetan to English is someone whom His Holiness finds reliable.
I think it is true those who attended and don't know much of the Gelug way of doing things will not be required to do the six session guru yoga, especially since the initiation was given so publically. It is implicit in what was repeated when tantric vows were given, however only those who look into the matter and seek further guidance on how to practice in depth will feel the need, especially if you receive commentary to the generation stage practice.

As for the translation, I think those relying on English translation alone will have missed about 30% of what happened during the initiation ritual section. It's not about the interpreter's competence but more an issue of it being simultaneous interpretation.
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tobes
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by tobes »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:21 pm
Terma wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:09 pmThey should keep samaya with His Holiness and follow his instructions. In this case, it would be to do six session guru yoga.
With all due respect, HH did not instruct us to do so during the wang.

Regarding the translation issue: I do not know why there was a discrepancy between the English and the other mentioned versions. But I trust that the person translating from Tibetan to English is someone whom His Holiness finds reliable.
:good:
jmlee369
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by jmlee369 »

Terma wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:59 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:11 pm
Also, Gyalwa Gyatso is a mother tantra practice so comes with those specific commitments but they weren't spelt out in the empowerment.
I have not seen a difinitive answer on whether it is mother or father tantra. I think I read when HH previously gave this empowerment he had said it came from the father tantra class, and I think I have seen where it is more common with Guhyasamaja.

But then again, I've seen commentaries suggesting it was mother tantra.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/article/comme ... lwa-gyatso

"Just a moment ago I said, I think this belongs to the Guhyasamaja group, that means it is possible to practice the Gyalwa Gyatso deity according to Kalachakra or dzog chen, due to the mental disposition of the practitioner. This generally belongs to the Guhyasamaja group. Within that we have Mother Tantra and Father Tantra. Since there is a Father Tantra and a Mother Tantra there must be a Son Tantra, without son we cannot speak of father and mother, can we?

Now you see, Guhyasamaja belongs to Father Tantra, Heruka to Mother Tantra..."

So I'm not really sure.
It is interesting that His Holiness' comments during the initiation suggested this is father tantra, but looking into the sadhana there are also suggestions it is mother tantra. There's a thread on the forum discussing the Karma Kagyu transmission of this practice and they also have some ambiguity about whether it is father or mother tantra.
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tobes
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by tobes »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:11 pm That is kind of what I have been thinking about. AFAIK I have not noticed HH saying anything about daily practice requirements. I probably missed HH mentioning the daily renewal of vows. However, if I am not mistaken that can be easily done with daily Vajrasattva purification or 35 Buddhas practice and guru yoga. Thus making 6 session guru yoga one of the possible ways of keeping it, however not a practice requirement as it has not been requested from us to do it. But that might be a bit too legalist.
It would be a good idea to actually retake the tantric vows each day (3 times) and then preserve the samayas with Vajrasattva etc.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Dharmadale »

It is worth noting that website for His Holiness mentions a practice commitment for the upcoming Chakrasamvara empowerment but says nothing of six-session Guru yoga. Now it is pretty much inconceivable that His Holiness would give this initiation, at the request of the tantric colleges, without including the six-session Guru yoga as a commitment. It is not mentioned because, as I said earlier it should be taken as a given that a commitment to practice six-session Guru yoga is included in all Gelug HYT initiations. Whether you are Gelugpa or not I imagine the commitment is still there.
Of course the exceptional circumstances of such a readily available initiation may have changed things, but I wouldn't count on it. Before anyone makes a firm decision not to do it, perhaps just practice the short version until they can get official advice from the office of His Holiness
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Okay, so if I understand this correctly. The "problem" here are not the general root and branch samayas. It is the specific 5 Buddha families samayas, right? (Link to Berzin's article on them)

If so then my question is does vajrasattva not purify and repair them, or is the issue the question of retaking those vows daily? If so does this extremely brief 6 session guruyoga prayer suffice?
From my gurus and the Three Precious Gems, I take safe direction. With myself clear as a deity, holding vajra and bell, I present you with offerings. Upholding the teachings of sutra and tantra, I restrain myself from a wide array of faulty deeds. Amassing within all constructive measures, I benefit beings through the four types of giving.
- Ngulchu Dharmabhadra
Also does anyone have a different translation? I am a bit allergic to Berzin and his way of translating things due to personal reasons. :oops:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Terma
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:23 am Okay, so if I understand this correctly. The "problem" here are not the general root and branch samayas. It is the specific 5 Buddha families samayas, right? (Link to Berzin's article on them)

If so then my question is does vajrasattva not purify and repair them, or is the issue the question of retaking those vows daily? If so does this extremely brief 6 session guruyoga prayer suffice?
From my gurus and the Three Precious Gems, I take safe direction. With myself clear as a deity, holding vajra and bell, I present you with offerings. Upholding the teachings of sutra and tantra, I restrain myself from a wide array of faulty deeds. Amassing within all constructive measures, I benefit beings through the four types of giving.
- Ngulchu Dharmabhadra
Also does anyone have a different translation? I am a bit allergic to Berzin and his way of translating things due to personal reasons. :oops:
This extremely concise prayer can function as a recitation of the six session guru yoga, but really it is more for last resort emergencies. The abbreviated version is barely adequate but is still doable and fulfills all requirements. It takes only about 5 minutes to recite 3 times- so that is only 10 minutes per day. The full version takes about 20 minutes for 3 recitations according to the instructions, and this is the best.

If I may say so, if one is just hoping to fulfill these samaya commitments by only reciting this very short prayer, then it probably doesn't seem important. These commitments should not be seen as a burden, but rather a way to lead us to ultimate liberation for the benefit of all beings.

I feel instead we should feel so fortunate to have not only heard the dharma, but the teachings of lower tantra. Even then, being able to even enter the mandala of Highest Yoga Tantra- so rare! Not to mention receiving such from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Please take some time to reflect on this.

The 3 versions of six session guru yoga are available from the FPMT store as a download, as well as a commentary by Lama Zopa Rinpoche on the elaborate version if you are interested in that.

Best wishes.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by zerwe »

Terma wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:43 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:23 am Okay, so if I understand this correctly. The "problem" here are not the general root and branch samayas. It is the specific 5 Buddha families samayas, right? (Link to Berzin's article on them)

If so then my question is does vajrasattva not purify and repair them, or is the issue the question of retaking those vows daily? If so does this extremely brief 6 session guruyoga prayer suffice?
From my gurus and the Three Precious Gems, I take safe direction. With myself clear as a deity, holding vajra and bell, I present you with offerings. Upholding the teachings of sutra and tantra, I restrain myself from a wide array of faulty deeds. Amassing within all constructive measures, I benefit beings through the four types of giving.
- Ngulchu Dharmabhadra
Also does anyone have a different translation? I am a bit allergic to Berzin and his way of translating things due to personal reasons. :oops:
This extremely concise prayer can function as a recitation of the six session guru yoga, but really it is more for last resort emergencies. The abbreviated version is barely adequate but is still doable and fulfills all requirements. It takes only about 5 minutes to recite 3 times- so that is only 10 minutes per day. The full version takes about 20 minutes for 3 recitations according to the instructions, and this is the best.

If I may say so, if one is just hoping to fulfill these samaya commitments by only reciting this very short prayer, then it probably doesn't seem important. These commitments should not be seen as a burden, but rather a way to lead us to ultimate liberation for the benefit of all beings.

I feel instead we should feel so fortunate to have not only heard the dharma, but the teachings of lower tantra. Even then, being able to even enter the mandala of Highest Yoga Tantra- so rare! Not to mention receiving such from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Please take some time to reflect on this.

The 3 versions of six session guru yoga are available from the FPMT store as a download, as well as a commentary by Lama Zopa Rinpoche on the elaborate version if you are interested in that.

Best wishes.
Yes, as a recitation these times could be accurate. However, this is a complete practice and it should be done with effort (meditations, visualizations, recitations, etc...). One should try to seek out oral transmission, instructions, and commentary if possible. Some who offer this may want the student to commit to this being their HEART practice. Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana. Also, more than one of my teachers' have often suggested that all of what the sadhana offers can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga. In short, the entire core of the generation stage can be incorporated, as well as, completion stage practices. Personally, I devote 30-40 minutes minimum twice daily using the short version to complete my commitments and, to be honest, you could devote more time.

Shaun :namaste:
Terma
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:46 pm
Terma wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:43 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:23 am Okay, so if I understand this correctly. The "problem" here are not the general root and branch samayas. It is the specific 5 Buddha families samayas, right? (Link to Berzin's article on them)

If so then my question is does vajrasattva not purify and repair them, or is the issue the question of retaking those vows daily? If so does this extremely brief 6 session guruyoga prayer suffice?



Also does anyone have a different translation? I am a bit allergic to Berzin and his way of translating things due to personal reasons. :oops:
This extremely concise prayer can function as a recitation of the six session guru yoga, but really it is more for last resort emergencies. The abbreviated version is barely adequate but is still doable and fulfills all requirements. It takes only about 5 minutes to recite 3 times- so that is only 10 minutes per day. The full version takes about 20 minutes for 3 recitations according to the instructions, and this is the best.

If I may say so, if one is just hoping to fulfill these samaya commitments by only reciting this very short prayer, then it probably doesn't seem important. These commitments should not be seen as a burden, but rather a way to lead us to ultimate liberation for the benefit of all beings.

I feel instead we should feel so fortunate to have not only heard the dharma, but the teachings of lower tantra. Even then, being able to even enter the mandala of Highest Yoga Tantra- so rare! Not to mention receiving such from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Please take some time to reflect on this.

The 3 versions of six session guru yoga are available from the FPMT store as a download, as well as a commentary by Lama Zopa Rinpoche on the elaborate version if you are interested in that.

Best wishes.
Yes, as a recitation these times could be accurate. However, this is a complete practice and it should be done with effort (meditations, visualizations, recitations, etc...). One should try to seek out oral transmission, instructions, and commentary if possible. Some who offer this may want the student to commit to this being their HEART practice. Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana. Also, more than one of my teachers' have often suggested that all of what the sadhana offers can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga. In short, the entire core of the generation stage can be incorporated, as well as, completion stage practices. Personally, I devote 30-40 minutes minimum twice daily using the short version to complete my commitments and, to be honest, you could devote more time.

Shaun :namaste:
:good:
Great post, actually.

This practice really does have everything you need and I am personally going to ask my local Geshe to give a set of teachings on this. Yes, I suppose one could just recite for the sake of filling the commitments, but that really isn't the point is it?

I'm glad you find the time to get the most out of this practice.

🙏
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