HYT Wangs

zerwe
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by zerwe »

Terma wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:48 pm
zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:46 pm
Terma wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:43 pm
This extremely concise prayer can function as a recitation of the six session guru yoga, but really it is more for last resort emergencies. The abbreviated version is barely adequate but is still doable and fulfills all requirements. It takes only about 5 minutes to recite 3 times- so that is only 10 minutes per day. The full version takes about 20 minutes for 3 recitations according to the instructions, and this is the best.

If I may say so, if one is just hoping to fulfill these samaya commitments by only reciting this very short prayer, then it probably doesn't seem important. These commitments should not be seen as a burden, but rather a way to lead us to ultimate liberation for the benefit of all beings.

I feel instead we should feel so fortunate to have not only heard the dharma, but the teachings of lower tantra. Even then, being able to even enter the mandala of Highest Yoga Tantra- so rare! Not to mention receiving such from His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Please take some time to reflect on this.

The 3 versions of six session guru yoga are available from the FPMT store as a download, as well as a commentary by Lama Zopa Rinpoche on the elaborate version if you are interested in that.

Best wishes.
Yes, as a recitation these times could be accurate. However, this is a complete practice and it should be done with effort (meditations, visualizations, recitations, etc...). One should try to seek out oral transmission, instructions, and commentary if possible. Some who offer this may want the student to commit to this being their HEART practice. Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana. Also, more than one of my teachers' have often suggested that all of what the sadhana offers can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga. In short, the entire core of the generation stage can be incorporated, as well as, completion stage practices. Personally, I devote 30-40 minutes minimum twice daily using the short version to complete my commitments and, to be honest, you could devote more time.

Shaun :namaste:
:good:
Great post, actually.

This practice really does have everything you need and I am personally going to ask my local Geshe to give a set of teachings on this. Yes, I suppose one could just recite for the sake of filling the commitments, but that really isn't the point is it?

I'm glad you find the time to get the most out of this practice.

🙏
Just my two cents. I consider myself a relative beginner and I recognize that many things in the beginning ultimately are relegated to mere recitation. My lamas have made the point that we should both; make the effort to practice and be gentle with ourselves in the same. Little by little the details come and we can be continuously surprised at what our capacity and depth for such practices evolves into. Enjoy. I rejoice in everyone's efforts.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by heart »

zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:46 pm Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana.
Shaun :namaste:
I am afraid I don't understand the logic in that at all, how is this explained in the Gelug tradition?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
zerwe
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by zerwe »

heart wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:47 pm
zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:46 pm Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana.
Shaun :namaste:
I am afraid I don't understand the logic in that at all, how is this explained in the Gelug tradition?

/magnus
Emphasis is on the guru as the root of all. The guru is the root of all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities and their mandalas, dharma protectors, etc...They are the root of all realizations. I think they are highlighting that without guru devotion there is nothing, no attainments, no practice, etc...Perhaps, this is in order to avoid the pitfall of forgetting this or shifting the focus elsewhere. Additionally, as I have stated before, everything including both generation and completion stage practices of your Yidam can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga.

Often the story is used of the Chakrasamvara mandala appearing to Naropa and, in the presence of Tilopa, he erroneously chose to prostrate to the mandala before prostrating to his own guru.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:16 pm Just my two cents. I consider myself a relative beginner and I recognize that many things in the beginning ultimately are relegated to mere recitation. My lamas have made the point that we should both; make the effort to practice and be gentle with ourselves in the same. Little by little the details come and we can be continuously surprised at what our capacity and depth for such practices evolves into. Enjoy. I rejoice in everyone's efforts.

Shaun :namaste:
You're absolutely correct. Though I've been a so called "practitioner" for some time now, I would certainly consider myself a beginner as well. Actually it was my aspirations to make a connection with this lineage for a long time and to also become a little more serious with my Dharma practice that resulted in me receiving this initiation from His Holiness. I was simply not ready to decide between spending my spare time practicing and enjoying samsara. This is why I have waited to take on any commitments.

As I said earlier, certainly not a burden and more like something to really help me to understand the importance of samaya, the guru, etc., and integrate this more and more.

How wonderful!
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Sādhaka »

zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:21 pmEmphasis is on the guru as the root of all. The guru is the root of all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities and their mandalas, dharma protectors, etc...They are the root of all realizations. I think they are highlighting that without guru devotion there is nothing, no attainments, no practice, etc...Perhaps, this is in order to avoid the pitfall of forgetting this or shifting the focus elsewhere. Additionally, as I have stated before, everything including both generation and completion stage practices of your Yidam can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga.

This is basically how Chögyal Namkhai Norbu explains Guru Yoga; in the Dzogchen context anyway (and the Gyalwa Dalai Lama himself is also a Dzogchenpa as you’re probably aware).

And also per Chögyal Namkhai Norbu, Guru Padmasambhava said that you can combine all the transmissions you’ve received, practice commitments, and Deities, into any Guruyoga practice that you’ve received as well.

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu also has mentioned many times that explanation about Naropa and Tilopa (or perhaps a very similar one about Guru Padmasambhava and one of his students).
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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tobes
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by tobes »

Yes one should consider His Holiness as a Rime practitioner - I wonder if this wang was requested by Tai Situ? And also that this was a large public wang webcast globally for Saka Dawa. And that his intent around samayas probably reflects this.

If I was a non-Gelug, I would go by what the guru actually said, not by what was inferred by others.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

tobes wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:58 am Yes one should consider His Holiness as a Rime practitioner - I wonder if this wang was requested by Tai Situ? And also that this was a large public wang webcast globally for Saka Dawa. And that his intent around samayas probably reflects this.

If I was a non-Gelug, I would go by what the guru actually said, not by what was inferred by others.
Yes, I was told before hand that Tai Situ Rinpoche did in fact request this initiation. Which was auspicious because I also heard HH doesn't give this too often.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by heart »

zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:21 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:47 pm
zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:46 pm Some gurus will stress that this is more important than practicing the sadhana.
Shaun :namaste:
I am afraid I don't understand the logic in that at all, how is this explained in the Gelug tradition?

/magnus
Emphasis is on the guru as the root of all. The guru is the root of all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities and their mandalas, dharma protectors, etc...They are the root of all realizations. I think they are highlighting that without guru devotion there is nothing, no attainments, no practice, etc...Perhaps, this is in order to avoid the pitfall of forgetting this or shifting the focus elsewhere. Additionally, as I have stated before, everything including both generation and completion stage practices of your Yidam can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga.

Often the story is used of the Chakrasamvara mandala appearing to Naropa and, in the presence of Tilopa, he erroneously chose to prostrate to the mandala before prostrating to his own guru.

Shaun :namaste:
I have no problem understanding this but why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 am
zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:21 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:47 pm

I am afraid I don't understand the logic in that at all, how is this explained in the Gelug tradition?

/magnus
Emphasis is on the guru as the root of all. The guru is the root of all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities and their mandalas, dharma protectors, etc...They are the root of all realizations. I think they are highlighting that without guru devotion there is nothing, no attainments, no practice, etc...Perhaps, this is in order to avoid the pitfall of forgetting this or shifting the focus elsewhere. Additionally, as I have stated before, everything including both generation and completion stage practices of your Yidam can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga.

Often the story is used of the Chakrasamvara mandala appearing to Naropa and, in the presence of Tilopa, he erroneously chose to prostrate to the mandala before prostrating to his own guru.

Shaun :namaste:
I have no problem understanding this but why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas?

/magnus
After all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.

It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
tobes wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:58 amYes one should consider His Holiness as a Rime practitioner - I wonder if this wang was requested by Tai Situ? And also that this was a large public wang webcast globally for Saka Dawa. And that his intent around samayas probably reflects this.

If I was a non-Gelug, I would go by what the guru actually said, not by what was inferred by others.
:good:

I would like to add, controversially perhaps, that HHDL is so much more than just a Geluk tulku. Regarding him as a Geluk teacher seems comparable to seeing Padmasambhava as a Nyingma lama.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by heart »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:26 am After all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.
It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
My question was if the yidam is the guru why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas. My take would be that if you can't do the sadhana then you do the guru yoga to keep the samayas but here they say that the sadhana (guru yoga) don't fullfil the samaya, you must do guru yoga. Weird.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:20 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:26 am After all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.
It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
My question was if the yidam is the guru why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas. My take would be that if you can't do the sadhana then you do the guru yoga to keep the samayas but here they say that the sadhana (guru yoga) don't fullfil the samaya, you must do guru yoga. Weird.

/magnus
It is surely a different valley.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

A special kind of guruyoga that is the only one that fulfils it and vajrasattva cannot mend it.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Sādhaka »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
Terma wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:25 am Yes, from the English translation aside from the advice you me mentioned above, all I heard was that the initiate is to "make the four offerings six times daily." So, six session guru yoga. This was confirmed by a lama friend. Pretty light.

That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.

jmlee369 wrote:…No lung is necessary, every time it was a commitment I was just given the text. However, commentary is available and very helpful if you can receive it.

Now this is something that I don’t get. How could one do the Six-Session practice if no lung was given, or if the attendees did not do the practice with the Dalai Lama?

I would think that some sort of transmission for the specific practice would have to have been received, in order to practice it. At least the lung; and, if not that, then having practiced it with the Gyalwa Dalai Lama (the latter of which would be tantamount to receiving the lung)….

And for Jinasagara, I would assume that the lung for the Sadhana was included somewhere within the Empowerment that the Dalai Lama gave…? Is there a short Sadhana? Perhaps the following:

https://shop.fpmt.org/Gyalwa-Gyatso-Sho ... _1061.html
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Sādhaka »

Also, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said that the only way to receive Empowerment remotely, is via Don Wang; and that he actually learned about this from the Gyalwa Dalai Lama.

However what the Dalai Lama transmitted didn’t really seem like the Don Wangs that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu gave (Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s transmission of these was consistent in style, no matter what Deity or Cycle he was giving). Not to go into details; I’m just wondering if anyone who knows what I’m talking about can provide a general explanation to address my observation here, or even PM me with details…. It can probably just be explained as simply different styles though.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:20 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:26 am After all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.
It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
My question was if the yidam is the guru why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas. My take would be that if you can't do the sadhana then you do the guru yoga to keep the samayas but here they say that the sadhana (guru yoga) don't fullfil the samaya, you must do guru yoga. Weird.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,

Whenever I get a chance to I will ask my lama (Geshe) this question. Bit like others have said, it is more related to the samaya's of the five Buddha families, and also those of mother tantra.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 11:28 am
Terma wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 6:25 am Yes, from the English translation aside from the advice you me mentioned above, all I heard was that the initiate is to "make the four offerings six times daily." So, six session guru yoga. This was confirmed by a lama friend. Pretty light.

That particular line is part of the recitation for transmitting the tantric vows and one of the reasons six sessions is required. Hence the interpreters' assumptions that six session guru yoga is mandatory.

jmlee369 wrote:…No lung is necessary, every time it was a commitment I was just given the text. However, commentary is available and very helpful if you can receive it.

Now this is something that I don’t get. How could one do the Six-Session practice if no lung was given, or if the attendees did not do the practice with the Dalai Lama?

I would think that some sort of transmission for the specific practice would have to have been received, in order to practice it. At least the lung; and, if not that, then having practiced it with the Gyalwa Dalai Lama (the latter of which would be tantamount to receiving the lung)….

And for Jinasagara, I would assume that the lung for the Sadhana was included somewhere within the Empowerment that the Dalai Lama gave…? Is there a short Sadhana? Perhaps the following:

https://shop.fpmt.org/Gyalwa-Gyatso-Sho ... _1061.html
From my experience thus far with the Gelug lineage and it's lamas, lung isn't so crucial, as long as one has the requisite initiation. I think all the essentials for Sadhana was received during the empowerment anyways, such as self-generation, mantra, etc.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Sādhaka »

Terma wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:15 pmFrom my experience thus far with the Gelug lineage and it's lamas, lung isn't so crucial, as long as one has the requisite initiation. I think all the essentials for Sadhana was received during the empowerment anyways, such as self-generation, mantra, etc.

Has it been said anytime (or in any text) specifically, that the Six-Session Guruyoga is ‘built in’ to any Gelug Higher Tantra transmission; even if no lung is given for it?
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by Terma »

Sādhaka wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:24 pm Also, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu said that the only way to receive Empowerment remotely, is via Don Wang; and that he actually learned about this from the Gyalwa Dalai Lama.

However what the Dalai Lama transmitted didn’t really seem like the Don Wangs that Chögyal Namkhai Norbu gave (Chögyal Namkhai Norbu’s transmission of these was consistent in style, no matter what Deity or Cycle he was giving). Not to go into details; I’m just wondering if anyone who knows what I’m talking about can provide a general explanation to address my observation here, or even PM me with details…. It can probably just be explained as simply different styles though.
I can't give any of the technical details, but all I can say is that His Holiness explicitly said that if the one giving the initiation has the intent to do so and the one receiving it has the same intent to receive it, then it is valid.

So, for one who takes HH as a Vajra Guru, then is this not enough? As a disciple, I have full confidence and faith in HH and so what he has said is good enough for me.
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by heart »

Terma wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:10 pm
heart wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:20 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:26 am After all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.
It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
My question was if the yidam is the guru why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas. My take would be that if you can't do the sadhana then you do the guru yoga to keep the samayas but here they say that the sadhana (guru yoga) don't fullfil the samaya, you must do guru yoga. Weird.

/magnus
Hi Magnus,

Whenever I get a chance to I will ask my lama (Geshe) this question. Bit like others have said, it is more related to the samaya's of the five Buddha families, and also those of mother tantra.
Thank you, I find it really hard to grasp that doing the sadhana don't fullfil samayas of the five buddha families and the mother tantra.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: HYT Wangs

Post by zerwe »

heart wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 am
zerwe wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:21 pm
heart wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:47 pm

I am afraid I don't understand the logic in that at all, how is this explained in the Gelug tradition?

/magnus
Emphasis is on the guru as the root of all. The guru is the root of all the buddhas, bodhisattvas, deities and their mandalas, dharma protectors, etc...They are the root of all realizations. I think they are highlighting that without guru devotion there is nothing, no attainments, no practice, etc...Perhaps, this is in order to avoid the pitfall of forgetting this or shifting the focus elsewhere. Additionally, as I have stated before, everything including both generation and completion stage practices of your Yidam can be incorporated into 6-session guru yoga.

Often the story is used of the Chakrasamvara mandala appearing to Naropa and, in the presence of Tilopa, he erroneously chose to prostrate to the mandala before prostrating to his own guru.

Shaun :namaste:
I have no problem understanding this but why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas?

/magnus
One obvious one would be because, you still have to perform 6 session guru yoga. So, sadhana alone doesn't fulfill all the commitments one takes during the initiation. 6 session guru yoga is an ubiquitous for nearly all Gelug HYT initiations.

As to whether or not the sadhana of each HYT deity meets all the requirements/commitments to the 5 Buddha families, etc...That's a question I haven't really considered. It would seem as though it should, but if you break down all the commitments to the 5 Buddha families alone and examine them individually, it seems to be quite a hefty list doesn't it?

Not to mention that in Mother Tantra it is required to recite the "eight line praise" daily, as well as, perform Tsog twice monthly.

With the exception of Tsog, 6 session guru yoga is a sort of "packaged" way of ensuring that you honor all of those commitments daily.

Shaun :namaste:
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