I hear this a lot. Do you have a source? What vows those this relate to?
That's how I see it. You can fulfill some of the pledges between sessions or during the sadhana but the 6 session guru yoga is make sure you get them all everyday.
I hear this a lot. Do you have a source? What vows those this relate to?
That's how I see it. You can fulfill some of the pledges between sessions or during the sadhana but the 6 session guru yoga is make sure you get them all everyday.
I don't have a specific source on hand from the tantras themselves, but a teaching by Berzin on the vows related to Mother tantra has the "eight line praise" listed as a close bonding practice associated with the 2nd Mother Tantra vow. It was incorporated into 6 session guru yoga by Pabonghka. The 2nd vow is also considered an extension of the the 13th root tantric vow as per Berzin.
Absolutely, otherwise it is a bit like the blind leading the blind. I am sorry if I have contributed to any confusion.tobes wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 12:58 am Yes one should consider His Holiness as a Rime practitioner - I wonder if this wang was requested by Tai Situ? And also that this was a large public wang webcast globally for Saka Dawa. And that his intent around samayas probably reflects this.
If I was a non-Gelug, I would go by what the guru actually said, not by what was inferred by others.
I will see what I can find a definitive answer. Also, Terma is asking his teachers. I'm not sure if he is asking this specifically or not.Sādhaka wrote: ↑Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:32 am
Just bumping the above post, if anyone could please address it….
I have seen a commentary by the late Gelek Rinpoche stating explicitly that the recitation of this verse (given in a different translation) will not fulfil the six session guru yoga commitment. However, it was only shown to me by someone else so I do not know which of his teachings it is from. Vajrasattva for sure would purify the transgression and stop it from worsening but to actually restore the vows if they were fully broken would require taking the vows again through initiation or self-initiation (if you are qualified to do so). Vajrasattva alone would not fulfil, for example, the jewel family samayas.Könchok Thrinley wrote: ↑Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:23 am Okay, so if I understand this correctly. The "problem" here are not the general root and branch samayas. It is the specific 5 Buddha families samayas, right? (Link to Berzin's article on them)
If so then my question is does vajrasattva not purify and repair them, or is the issue the question of retaking those vows daily? If so does this extremely brief 6 session guruyoga prayer suffice?
Also does anyone have a different translation? I am a bit allergic to Berzin and his way of translating things due to personal reasons.From my gurus and the Three Precious Gems, I take safe direction. With myself clear as a deity, holding vajra and bell, I present you with offerings. Upholding the teachings of sutra and tantra, I restrain myself from a wide array of faulty deeds. Amassing within all constructive measures, I benefit beings through the four types of giving.
- Ngulchu Dharmabhadra
As Terma has mentioned, lung is not considered to be so crucial for many things in Gelug tantric practice. For example, I have been told that I can practice any sadhana specific to the particular form and lineage of deity that I received initiation for. I have never received a standalone lung for any of my daily practice commitments (other than mantras, which are built into the initiation) like six-session guru yoga or sadhanas. It has not been necessary to receive lung for the sadhana before the enabling/approximation retreat (le-rung) either. We also did not do six-session guru yoga with the guru after the commitment had been given. It's literally the case that a one page text is given out and we are told to do it six times a day for the rest of our life.Sādhaka wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:18 pm Now this is something that I don’t get. How could one do the Six-Session practice if no lung was given, or if the attendees did not do the practice with the Dalai Lama?
I would think that some sort of transmission for the specific practice would have to have been received, in order to practice it. At least the lung; and, if not that, then having practiced it with the Gyalwa Dalai Lama (the latter of which would be tantamount to receiving the lung)….
And for Jinasagara, I would assume that the lung for the Sadhana was included somewhere within the Empowerment that the Dalai Lama gave…? Is there a short Sadhana? Perhaps the following:
https://shop.fpmt.org/Gyalwa-Gyatso-Sho ... _1061.html
From Pabongkha Rinpoche's expanded version of Panchen Losang Chokyi Gyaltsen's longer six session guru yoga text:
In this video from a Jinasagara initiation given in 2014, His Holiness the Dalai Lama says that six-session guru yoga is a daily commitment because the tantras teach the daily upholding of the samayas of the five Buddha families.Anyone who has received the initiation of a tutelary deity from the yoga tantra class or higher must practice the six-session meditation ritual, for it contains benefits that cannot be derived even from those profound instructions that are known in Tibet as the "Golden Teachings"
[...]
any practitioner who has properly received an empowering initiation in one of the great mandalas of either of the two higher classes of tantra and who continues to possess the tantric vows in his mind stream must review all of the general root and secondary vows and pledges each day and, in particular, must maintain the pledges associated with the five lineage buddhas during six periods of practice. If he or she fails to do this, a gross transgression is incurred. As the Adamantine Crest Tantra (Vajrashikhara I think?) declares:
"They should be recited each day three times of the day and night
Whenever a practitioner fails to do so, he incurs a gross transgression."
heart wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:20 am My question was if the yidam is the guru why wouldn't the sadhana fullfil the samayas. My take would be that if you can't do the sadhana then you do the guru yoga to keep the samayas but here they say that the sadhana (guru yoga) don't fullfil the samaya, you must do guru yoga. Weird.
/magnus
It's more the whole six times requirement. If you are doing your sadhana six times a day, that would pretty much cover it (except, perhaps the samayas of the lotus and jewel families). Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche mentions in Medicine is Poison that serious Sakya practitioners do practice in four sessions daily. I also recall him mentioning a Bhutanese yogi he knew who does practice every four hours, even interrupting his sleep, to fulfil the six times a day requirement literally.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:26 amAfter all, a HYT sadhana -- any HYT sadhana -- is a guru yoga practice.
It seems that whereas for the Ka-Nying a guru yoga is a guru yoga is a guru yoga, in the end, for at least some Geluk practtioners it is not so.
Depends what you mean by "it."Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:36 am I actually saw this from when HH Gyalwang Karmapa OTD gave the HYT Chakrasamvara initiation.
“The main Kamtsang practice, of course, is Vajra Varahi but this is a very restricted practice and the empowerment should not be given lightly. The Chakrasamvara empowerment is not so restricted, so I thought if we made a Dharma connection through this, it would link to the practice of all the previous Karmapas since I carry the name of the Karmapa. It is also a good way to make a connection with the Secret Mantra Vajrayana, so it is an important occasion.”
“There is one problem, however,” the Karmapa cautioned. “To receive the empowerment, you must make the commitment to do the Four Session Guru Yoga, which is the main guru yoga in the Karma Kamtsang tradition. You could also do any other guru yoga, as each tradition has its guru yoga, such as the Six Session Guru Yoga of the Geluk tradition. Whichever one of them you may choose, the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life.”
https://kagyuoffice.org/the-gyalwang-ka ... powerment/
So it seems it is not really even just a Geluk thing, though I actually thought it was. But I do know that when a Gelug Lama gives HYT, then 6 session guru yoga is pretty much a mandatory requirement.
is entirely uncontroversial. Karmapa is here saying exactly what we have been saying all along, repeating what our Nyingma and Kagyu teachers have told us. To keep the commitments in-built in any HYT wang, one has to keep doing a guruyoga practice. The eyebrows were raised when some people suggested that one absolutely must do a particular guru yoga practice, whatever one's main practice is, whichever tradition one practices in, whatever one's main teacher has to say on the subject, etc.the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life
Point is though, that when one takes an initiation then they should fulfill the commands of that particular Vajra Guru which they took the empowerment from, no matter which lineage that the initiate supposedly belong to. That is part of the samaya bond between Vajra Guru and disciple isn't it? Not instead that we can pick or choose to fit in with what we like or don't like?treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:41 amDepends what you mean by "it."Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:36 am I actually saw this from when HH Gyalwang Karmapa OTD gave the HYT Chakrasamvara initiation.
“The main Kamtsang practice, of course, is Vajra Varahi but this is a very restricted practice and the empowerment should not be given lightly. The Chakrasamvara empowerment is not so restricted, so I thought if we made a Dharma connection through this, it would link to the practice of all the previous Karmapas since I carry the name of the Karmapa. It is also a good way to make a connection with the Secret Mantra Vajrayana, so it is an important occasion.”
“There is one problem, however,” the Karmapa cautioned. “To receive the empowerment, you must make the commitment to do the Four Session Guru Yoga, which is the main guru yoga in the Karma Kamtsang tradition. You could also do any other guru yoga, as each tradition has its guru yoga, such as the Six Session Guru Yoga of the Geluk tradition. Whichever one of them you may choose, the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life.”
https://kagyuoffice.org/the-gyalwang-ka ... powerment/
So it seems it is not really even just a Geluk thing, though I actually thought it was. But I do know that when a Gelug Lama gives HYT, then 6 session guru yoga is pretty much a mandatory requirement.
This:
is entirely uncontroversial. Karmapa is here saying exactly what we have been saying all along, repeating what our Nyingma and Kagyu teachers have told us. To keep the commitments in-built in any HYT wang, one has to keep doing a guruyoga practice. The eyebrows were raised when some people suggested that one absolutely must do a particular guru yoga practice, whatever one's main practice is, whichever tradition one practices in, whatever one's main teacher has to say on the subject, etc.the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life
Well, HHDL said nothing about specific practice commitments. But you may well be right: HHDL is not just a Geluk lama, he is vastly more than this.Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:36 amPoint is though, that when one takes an initiation then they should fulfill the commands of that particular Vajra Guru which they took the empowerment from, no matter which lineage that the initiate supposedly belong to. That is part of the samaya bond between Vajra Guru and disciple isn't it? Not instead that we can pick or choose to fit in with what we like or don't like?treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:41 amDepends what you mean by "it."Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:36 am I actually saw this from when HH Gyalwang Karmapa OTD gave the HYT Chakrasamvara initiation.
“The main Kamtsang practice, of course, is Vajra Varahi but this is a very restricted practice and the empowerment should not be given lightly. The Chakrasamvara empowerment is not so restricted, so I thought if we made a Dharma connection through this, it would link to the practice of all the previous Karmapas since I carry the name of the Karmapa. It is also a good way to make a connection with the Secret Mantra Vajrayana, so it is an important occasion.”
“There is one problem, however,” the Karmapa cautioned. “To receive the empowerment, you must make the commitment to do the Four Session Guru Yoga, which is the main guru yoga in the Karma Kamtsang tradition. You could also do any other guru yoga, as each tradition has its guru yoga, such as the Six Session Guru Yoga of the Geluk tradition. Whichever one of them you may choose, the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life.”
https://kagyuoffice.org/the-gyalwang-ka ... powerment/
So it seems it is not really even just a Geluk thing, though I actually thought it was. But I do know that when a Gelug Lama gives HYT, then 6 session guru yoga is pretty much a mandatory requirement.
This:
is entirely uncontroversial. Karmapa is here saying exactly what we have been saying all along, repeating what our Nyingma and Kagyu teachers have told us. To keep the commitments in-built in any HYT wang, one has to keep doing a guruyoga practice. The eyebrows were raised when some people suggested that one absolutely must do a particular guru yoga practice, whatever one's main practice is, whichever tradition one practices in, whatever one's main teacher has to say on the subject, etc.the commitment is to do a guru yoga practice every day for the rest of your life
I don't think I've ever heard a Gelug Lama saying to go ahead and do whichever guru yoga you want. So for initiations taken from a Gelug Lama, I think it is pretty lineage specific.
As someone earlier suggested, Six Session Guru Yoga is kind of a given when one takes HYT in Gelug. Case in point, on the website of OHHDL it states the commitments for the upcoming Heruka initiation, and It mentions nothing regarding six session guru yoga. Because it is a pretty well known fact that one does 6 session guru yoga after receiving any HYT initiation from that lineage.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:48 amWell, HHDL said nothing about specific practice commitments. But you may well be right: HHDL is not just a Geluk lama, he is vastly more than this.Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:36 amPoint is though, that when one takes an initiation then they should fulfill the commands of that particular Vajra Guru which they took the empowerment from, no matter which lineage that the initiate supposedly belong to. That is part of the samaya bond between Vajra Guru and disciple isn't it? Not instead that we can pick or choose to fit in with what we like or don't like?treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:41 am
Depends what you mean by "it."
This:
is entirely uncontroversial. Karmapa is here saying exactly what we have been saying all along, repeating what our Nyingma and Kagyu teachers have told us. To keep the commitments in-built in any HYT wang, one has to keep doing a guruyoga practice. The eyebrows were raised when some people suggested that one absolutely must do a particular guru yoga practice, whatever one's main practice is, whichever tradition one practices in, whatever one's main teacher has to say on the subject, etc.
I don't think I've ever heard a Gelug Lama saying to go ahead and do whichever guru yoga you want. So for initiations taken from a Gelug Lama, I think it is pretty lineage specific.
Regarding choosing and picking: If you take initiations or receive teachings from more than one lama (even within the same lineage), then at some point you will be forced to choose and pick, because there will be, invariably, differences, mostly minor, but at times major. I have experienced it dozens of times, actually. All my teachers are fairly relaxed here, generally speaking, pointing out that whenever one gets conflicting advice, one should follow the advice of the teacher one trusts the most.
Well, I am sorry but the fact that HHDL's website info on Heruka wang mentions nothing regarding the 6 session GY does not necessarily imply that it is so because "it is a pretty well known fact that one does 6 session guru yoga after receiving any HYT initiation from that lineage." A plausible reading, for sure. Just as plausible as the interpretation that HHDL does not mention it because he does not actually require it this time.Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:11 pmAs someone earlier suggested, Six Session Guru Yoga is kind of a given when one takes HYT in Gelug. Case in point, on the website of OHHDL it states the commitments for the upcoming Heruka initiation, and It mentions nothing regarding six session guru yoga. Because it is a pretty well known fact that one does 6 session guru yoga after receiving any HYT initiation from that lineage.
I could not imagine a senior Lama giving one of the major initiations of this lineage and not expecting six session guru yoga as a requirement.
I suppose, if this is the way you wish to interpret this. I think this could be debated until the cows come home, so I see no point in continuing.treehuggingoctopus wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:40 pmWell, I am sorry but the fact that HHDL's website info on Heruka wang mentions nothing regarding the 6 session GY does not necessarily imply that it is so because "it is a pretty well known fact that one does 6 session guru yoga after receiving any HYT initiation from that lineage." A plausible reading, for sure. Just as plausible as the interpretation that HHDL does not mention it because he does not actually require it this time.Terma wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:11 pmAs someone earlier suggested, Six Session Guru Yoga is kind of a given when one takes HYT in Gelug. Case in point, on the website of OHHDL it states the commitments for the upcoming Heruka initiation, and It mentions nothing regarding six session guru yoga. Because it is a pretty well known fact that one does 6 session guru yoga after receiving any HYT initiation from that lineage.
I could not imagine a senior Lama giving one of the major initiations of this lineage and not expecting six session guru yoga as a requirement.
Personally, since the Heruka event description actually mentions a specific daily practice commitment and two ways of keeping it ("Please note that people attending the initiation are required to do the daily practice of the Luipa Chakrasamvara Sadhana (luipe dechok dakye) or al least the Triple Purification Practice (dakpa sum kyi nyeljor) of Chakrasamvara"), I think that if HHDL had wanted the recipients to do more than what is specified, the website note would have included further relevant information.
I agree.
Well, at least we Kagyupas only have to do Four sessions, and not six!
Yeah, you Kagyupa's get off easy!conebeckham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:18 pmWell, at least we Kagyupas only have to do Four sessions, and not six!
I jest, I jest.