Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

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xjh2021
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

PeterC wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:24 am
In any case, ChNNr had plenty of time to decide this, and chose not to appoint someone as his successor.

It’s important to remember that there isn’t some “ChNNr Transmission”. He taught Buddhadharma, and within that, primarily Dzogchen. If we get hung up on the “ChNNr Lineage” then I think we misunderstood what he taught.
Then how Can new Students practice ChNNr's special teaching such as long sa ? or They can't.
Malcolm
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Malcolm »

xjh2021 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 12:35 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 11:24 am
In any case, ChNNr had plenty of time to decide this, and chose not to appoint someone as his successor.

It’s important to remember that there isn’t some “ChNNr Transmission”. He taught Buddhadharma, and within that, primarily Dzogchen. If we get hung up on the “ChNNr Lineage” then I think we misunderstood what he taught.
Then how Can new Students practice ChNNr's special teaching such as long sa ? or They can't.
They need to receive it from someone who has received it and practiced it.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:05 pm
They need to receive it from someone who has received it and practiced it.
such as Fabio, SMS instrutor or common student ?
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Sādhaka »

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu wrote: https://melong.com/santi-maha-sangha-le ... -training/

“Many of you don’t know what Santi Maha Sangha is. Why do many people want to do Santi Maha Sangha? Many people say it is because they want to be a teacher. Some people have this idea, but Santi Maha Sangha training or learning is not for becoming a teacher. If you have the intention to be a teacher from the beginning, that is very bad. That means you have less qualification. For example, many years after I arrived in Italy, many people asked me to teach. I told them I was a student, because I did not feel I was a teacher. I felt that I still wanted to learn and do practice, at least to realize something. So if you have that idea from the beginning, it is not good and it is better you don’t do Santi Maha Sangha at all.”

Not to imply that no one should teach. Just as you can see, Chögyal Namkhai Norbu seemed to have high expectations on who is qualified to teach.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Malcolm »

xjh2021 wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 1:05 pm
They need to receive it from someone who has received it and practiced it.
such as Fabio, SMS instrutor or common student ?
From whoever feels confident to transmit it, based on their experience, and is willing to be a responsible teacher for that person, and understands what that means.

The qualifications for who can give teachings is clearly described in the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra. People should check those out and see if they think the person they wish to receive teachings from is qualified.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Miorita »

Don't you have to have the kayas first?
I don't believe in people who can't prove anything. And then please consider how difficult of a student I was even to ChNNR! I gave him a hard time.
So it's a definite "No" from me. That is not a transmission.

A teacher shows compassion even after he leaves. He is even more powerful beyond. I had rain falling from the clear sky and I know it was the teacher. I had snow falling from the clear sky and it might have been the teacher.
To conclude: I am too novice to say something relevant so I am happy to just add to the bucket effect: when one tries to get out, the others pull him back in. :tongue:
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

At some point people will need to be grown ups and make their own decisions about who to follow.

Along with Rinpoches consistent message about unifying teachers, getting to the essence of things, etc. I also recall him talking a lot about being responsible for ourselves.

To me part of that means really doing my best to evaluate teachers and relying on external credentialing authority only where it’s beneficial. Relying on them simply to avoid difficult decisions is bound to work out badly.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:32 pm
From whoever feels confident to transmit it, based on their experience, and is willing to be a responsible teacher for that person, and understands what that means.

The qualifications for who can give teachings is clearly described in the Self-Arisen Vidyā Tantra. People should check those out and see if they think the person they wish to receive teachings from is qualified.
Could you give an example in the history ?
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Here are two examples from the history of the Dzogchen Community.

In 2016 ChNN gave 2 letters about who can teach. These two letters were distributed by the IG on May 27, 2020.

This is the first letter of May 13 2016. (Second letter to follow.)

Please note that this letter states that his children have permission to teach ONLY,

"Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for,"

This is profoundly different than saying that they have permission to teach whatever they want or however they want, and this includes Direct Introduction.

Also, "All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices, in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity and qualification."

This is the key point that clarifies who has permission to teach. This is plain common sense and applies to everyone.

While he was alive, ChNN left it up to himself to make this decision. Perhaps, at a time when there is no Master, perhaps this means that anyone who feels that they have completed a practice, can teach that practice, including Direct Introduction. In the absence of any other instructions, perhaps this is what ChNN intended.

:heart: ob

________________________________________________________

Dear Global Dzogchen Community.

I would like to make a clarification on the recent letter I wrote especially about courses in the Dzogchen Community for practitioners with transmission. As I have already said, we all have to be sure that people who will teach have a concrete base and understanding, this is important for everyone now and for the future. For this reason it is my responsibility, as the Teacher and main holder of the transmission and lineage, to be sure I have trust in the people I authorize.

I have this deep trust in my Son and my Daughter. Any teaching they received the transmission and instructions for, I have full confidence for them to teach. If they decide they want to teach. But they should be free and nobody should try to force them to teach.

Kenpo Yeshe Wangpo I have already authorized to teach several different practices.

Nina Robinson I have authorized to teach Mandarava.

Naljorma Tsultrim Allione and Costantino Albini I have authorized to teach my teaching of Chod.

Elio Guarisco and Fabio Andrico I have authorized to teach the Tsalungs of Mandarava.

Michael Katz I have authorized to teach my teachings on Dream Yoga.

All the SMS teachers are not automatically authorized to teach many practices, in order to teach a specific practice they should first have that concrete knowledge, experience, capacity and qualification.

Practitioners who are already leading some practices with practitioners who received the transmission should understand they are not authorized teachers. All practitioners and Gakyils should understand this.

To be considered teachers they should first be directly and officially authorized by the Teacher.

Dzamling Gar 13 05 2016

ChNN.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by oldbob »

:namaste:

Here is the second letter of 2016 from ChNN. This letter from ChNN was sent out by the IG on May 27,2020.

Please be informed as you read this that the one complete media (video, audio and print) copy of the collected works of ChNN is held at Merigar and if there is a fire or earthquake, this most precious record of the Teachings of ChNN could be lost forever.

This letter was sent out to the IG and Members of the IDC on December 28, 2020.

:heart:
__________________________________________________________________________
Monday, December 28, 2020
Dear IG and Members of the IDC,

Here is an unedited transcript of a talk between ChNNR and the SMS teachers on Nov 16, 2016.
While this transcript is difficult to read, the meaning and intention of Rinpoche is very clear.

To sum up:
This talk applies to how everybody (P1 line4) everybody, should or should not teach, not just to SMS Instructors.

But specifically, as applies to SMS Instructors he wrote (P1 line 9 &10:)
"then becoming teacher of the Santi Maha Sangha is becoming teacher of everything; I think this is not good,"

In clear English, here he is saying that it is not good that the SMS Instructors should be teachers of everything.

Elsewhere he is stating that SMS teachers should teach at the appropriate level, for which they have been approved for; to SMS students at their appropriate level.

"CHNN: First Level? It depends: if it’s a First Level teacher, maybe he can teach to who is training the First Level, not to whatever person. If he is present, there is no need to think too much, it’s very clear. If he is called teacher of the First, or the Second, there is a meaning. To whom he teaches? To who is studying that, not to the public."

In relation to studying (and practicing) his Secondary Practices, he is also saying clearly that any student of his, who has received transmission can lead discussion / practice groups. Fabio summed this up precisely when he stated: (Bold face in mine for clarity.)

"Fabio: So is not necessary that a SMS teacher do this, people, any person in the Dzogchen Community can get together and study."

Rinpoche was using study of the Dorje Sempa Namkha Che as an example, but this relates to all of the secondary practices.

So, the key point as to who can teach is that the person teaching should know the practice.

"you should check first of all by yourselves, if you really know it or not."

What this leads to, in practical terms, is that the great wealth of the more than 120 secondary practices could be made available to our entire current Dzogchen Community by expanding our teacher base, as per Rinpoche’s instructions in this 2016 talk to the SMS teachers.

While the SMS teachers are all excellent teachers, they each teach from their own dimension. Perhaps other old students such as some have been in the Community more than 40 years, should also be able to teach the practices that they have accomplished according to Rinpoche's clear instructions in this 2016 talk.

Perhaps this will lead to more new people becoming Members and allow the precious and rare transmission of all of the 120 Secondary Practices to be preserved for all of the future.

Perhaps the IG can issue a finding that it is ok for old timers to lead study groups on any practice and also have a new way to authorize those who want to be Teachers to have a way of being certified by a new, “College of Spiritual Advisors.”

Please let me know what you think.
Respectfully, Bob Kragen



Beginning of original transcript
__________________________________________________________________________________________-

Chögyal Namkhai Norbu meets SMS teachers. Dzamling Gar, November 16, 2016

CHNN: I told you already this morning my hope; we need to do sometimes a kind of meeting of all teachers together; not for qualifying teachers, or doing examination, etc, but for checking how our teaching is going. Everybody is teaching different things, which kind of situation they find, difficulties or easy things, or what is necessary to have, something like a kind of program, etc, but we cannot do this in this moment. So today I’m not calling you here for that, but the first thing I want to say is that we did a very good job in these days. I am very happy and I want to say thank you very much for your coming here everybody, for your dedication, that is very good. And a very important thing, then, we are thinking in which way everybody, teachers, particularly teachers of the Santi Maha Sangha, can teach; we need to check a little this thing, otherwise sometimes it becomes a little strange, and not only strange but it becomes difficult also for me, because I don’t know what I should do.

For example some people say, “Oh, we need to invite Santi Maha Sangha teachers to give Dzogchen teachings of the Dzogchen Semde, or Longde,” or something like this. This is not good, because Dzogchen Semde and Longde are not in the Base. In the Base there is all, from the refuge till the indication of tawa, gompa and chöpa, it explains how these three are in Hinayana, Mahayana, and then in Vajrayana, in Anuyoga, and Dzogchen, etc. So what we learned in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha, this is what we can teach and inform. If you have some more capacity to go deeper that is not problem, it’s very good, but if you jump on something outside of that and you do some teachings that we have in our Dzogchen Community – in Shang Shung Editions we have so many secondary practices – then becoming teacher of the Santi Maha Sangha is becoming teacher of everything; I think this is not good, because we should go very precise on what is limited in the Base of the Santi Maha Sangha. Then if someone says, “Oh, these Santi Maha Sangha teachers could explain and do something just like the practice of the Mandarava, practice of something else”, (we have many secondary practices,) in this case I am not saying you couldn’t do that, you can do, but you should check first of all by yourselves, if you really know it or not. If you know everything very precise, then I say OK, then there is the possibility, and you can do something; no need to always ask me, something like a permission, etc, and I say OK to this, because otherwise it seems, “Oh I am teacher of Chöd, I am teacher of the Long Life Practice,” etc, it becomes strange. We have many things in Dzogchen Community, many practices. So Santi Maha Sangha teachers should check a little by themselves; if they really have knowledge etc, they can communicate. People are asking me, “I have this knowledge, can I do? Is it OK?” Then I say OK. Then you don’t need to say, “I received a permission, or not permission”. But it is better you ask me, for I am the teacher of you. So if we go that way, there will be no problems. Because otherwise sometimes it becomes complicated.

And particularly if we speak of public talks, for example, if you should speak in public to people who are not Dzogchen practitioners, which kind of practice we can explain, or teaching, etc, In this case you can think a little, for example, if you want to do like in general a Buddhist teaching, etc, try to remember the Bodhisattvacharyavatara. This teaching is very precious, also the Dalai Lama is always giving it, there is not any problem. If you know this, you can teach any argument, and you can explain to everybody. Sometimes people say, “Oh, people need to use something like Shine practice etc” In this case, if you want to teach Shine, etc, you should learn the Shine in the Bodhisattvacharyavatara, how it is explained in the Sutra teaching. That you can do, there is not any problem. But do not jump immediately in what you learned in the Dzogchen Semde, you learned something like Shine and you explain it to the public, this is not paying respect to the transmission, because in teaching we have transmission. So this is very important. These things you should observe by yourselves, there is no need to ask always to the teacher.

In the Dzogchen teaching there is the saying “the best teacher is yourself”. Best teacher is yourself means you know how to observe, then you can understand. I am always saying to be present; presence is not still matured in everybody… So if we really have sufficient presence, we know what we should do, not always need to discuss with the teacher. We should work a little on this basis. And then if it is necessary to teach something, to talk, remember that there is my book, The Mirror, this book is very good! To people who don’t know anything, if someone is interested, you can communicate just like how it is explained in this book. Not complete, not all, don’t go deeper in the state of contemplation, but it explains that it is very important having trenpa (dran pa) and shezhin (shes bzhin); trenpa means for remembering, shezhing means applying with presence. If you teach this, this is the best teaching, everybody has always problem of tensions in our society, and between persons and persons, etc. If we have trenshe we are freeing these tensions, we can relax, and this is the most important teaching; we have really no need for any complicated teaching! So you should do a little these things, these things I want to ask you: be careful and do your best. I am also doing these things.

I told you this morning how I started teaching, the twenty-seven commitments that I took by myself, not only in that moment, I am applying this always, remembering these things, I never do the contrary of that: you should learn a little also this, there is already the translation. This is what I want to say, thank you very much. Now you can enjoy also water and fruit here. We are many people here, we couldn’t prepare something complicated to eat. This is local, very good. Then always our people in general says, “Oh we have many questions to ask, this or that”; questions are not really necessary, because if you go after your mind, questions never finish. But you observe a little by yourselves, you can reply your questions, this is more important. Because we are Dzogchen practitioners. Try to be Dzogchen practitioners.

Fabio: I have heard that sometimes the Gakyils have asked Santi Maha Sangha teachers to teach some methods that are in the Longsal teachings…

CHNN: Longsal teaching is not the Santi Maha Sangha Base. I have already told you that. I have said not to jump, what does it mean? Try to do what is in the Base. Look well, check well, there is no Longsal teaching in the Base.

Fabio: Not even in First Level, really.

CHNN: First Level? It depends: if it’s a First Level teacher, maybe he can teach to who is training the First Level, not to whatever person. If he is present, there is no need to think too much, it’s very clear. If he is called teacher of the First, or the Second, there is a meaning. To whom he teaches? To who is studying that, not to the public. The public is not doing this, has not arrived to the Second, or Third level, has not done even the Base… If the teacher is not present, then he does these things; if he is present then he does not do, because he knows… This is communication, very simple…

Igor: Another questioni is: in these days we have seen that here they are doing a course on the Dorje Sempa Namkha Che.

CHNN: Dorje Sempa Namkha Che, I prepared a book. So my idea is that Dzogchen practitioners, should put on their calendars learning it piece by piece. It is not that someone is going to give teaching or do some practice, but for studying, learning the verses one by one

Igor: Can we start everywhere to do this?

CHNN: Yes, all Dzogchen practitioners can do it. Not practitioners that are not interested, it’s not necessary. It is very important, Dorje Sempa Namkha Che is like the root of all texts of the Dzogchen teaching, and so we learn and know a little the real sense of the meaning. And also I prepared it combining with the commentary of Vajrochana, otherwise it is not so easy to understand. So this is how the communication on the real sense of the Dzogchen teaching is. That means learning a little more in the intellectual way. Sometimes we need also to study in the intellectual way, because we are still living in our mind, judging and thinking. Instead of thinking useless things it is better to think a little useful things… We spend also one time, two times, etc, studying, learning a little the meaning, what it means, then it becomes useful, just like oral teachings. In oral teachings there are only few words, but when there are no many things for studying, students concentrate on it, thinking and developing. It increases clarity, that’s good. But this is not a particular practice.

Igor: You said in your presentation of this, the discussion of the special principle expressed in the root verses prepared for each week in the period of the new moon, in the period of the tenth and 25th day, and so forth. So it is better to do this in these days?

CHNN: No no, in whatever moment… like on a calendar: when we have a little time, what do we do? Maybe today we do this Dorje Sempa Namkha Che, for example, and then you do. If someone can do it every day for going on, that’s very good, but even if it’s not possible, it doesn’t matter, each time try to understand a little the arguments. This is the point.

Fabio: I don’t really think he was talking about specifically study group, everybody can do, a single person can study, no?

CHNN: Of course! Together. It is not that someone has to teach this, I have not said this. I do not want mushrooms! Developing mushroom style of teachers, “Oh I am teacher of the Dorje Sempa Namkha Che” ; I don’t need anyone like this. But everybody has the right to study Dorje Sempa Namkha Che because we received Guruyoga transmission, there is not any problem. But not to bring Dorje Sempa Namkha Che to the public or talking to people who are not interested in the Dzogchen teaching, it’s very clear.

Fabio: So is not necessary that a SMS teacher do this, people, any person in the Dzogchen Community can get together and study.

CHNN: I am not saying Santi Maha Sangha teachers should do Dorje Sempa Namkha Che. Practitioners who are interested. If you received Ati Guruyoga transmission, and you feel, “Oh, I am a Dzogchen practitioner”, OK, then you have the possibility to study Dorje Sempa Namkha Che always. If there is a verse of the Dorje Sempa Namkha Che, and you concentrate on it, or you have there your friends, and there are two or three persons together, and we are discussing, instead of useless things, it becomes very useful. The knowledge develops that way. If there are some Santi Maha Sangha teachers also, who are more expert, and we are discussing, they can help, for making clear. But not that teachers of Santi Maha Sangha become teachers of Dorje Sempa Namkha Che. Otherwise people jump this way. That is the reason why I always said, “I am a student, not yet a teacher”, but then everybody said “Oh you are teacher,” then I started to do retreats, etc. And now I am feeling also a little teacher, because there are many students… (laughs) Normal, no?

Julia: Rinpoche, this Mindfulness is…

CHNN: Mindfulness started from Buddhist teaching in general, in the Sutra. Also you can find it in the Dzogchen teaching, mindfulness means being present, trenpa and shezhin, what I wrote on this book, Melong, The Mirror, this is the real mindfulness. If you are going to study in the Sutra style, then you can do many analysis, and develop a lot of concepts, etc. You can also do this, this is mindfulness. If you are going to the essence, after being in the state of contemplation, how you apply your presence, this is also mindfulness. But then, if you are talking with other people who are interested, it’s not necessary that you take it from the Dzogchen teaching, but mindfulness. If you want to communicate, it was started to teach by Buddha Shakyamuni, there are so many things, arguments.

Today many people are talking very much, it’s a kind of fashion, saying, “Oh, mindfulness, mindfulness”, no? In the teaching, for example, when we say mindfulness, then there are four arguments: the difficulty of getting our human body, then how it is? It is impermanent, then how it is related with the karma, our actions, the consequence of the karma. People learn this, and then are present; these are called the four mindfulnesses, it is more ufficial. But it’s not necessary to limit to that; mindfulness means presence, and that’s all. Some people say mindfulness is being in the state of contemplation: this is wrong, it’s not contemplation, no. Mindfulness is related with mind, judging, thinking, in time and space, not beyond that. You should teach that way, not jumping on the contemplation, you cannot do that. If you need to communicate contemplation, you should work with transmission. We have no capacity to go beyond. For example you say, “What is the nature of mind?” Nobody knows; how we can understand? Dzogchen teaching says our real nature is “non duality of kadag and lhundrub”. Non duality of clarity and emptiness, how do you do that? Non duality of good and bad, how you do that? In mind, in time, we couldn’t judge and think, couldn’t find anything. Good is good, bad is bad, how we can put them together? When we can put them together, discover that, it means being beyond time and space. But it’s not necessary to talk about this to ordinary people. We should talk to people who are interested, how we are in time, how it is related with our situation, everything, related to the teaching, you should go this way. This is also for Shine practice, that way. For that reason many Shine practitioners, particularly Sutra, they are waiting that Lhagthong arrives one day… Shine is related with mind and with experiences, that way.

Then, is it OK?

Mikael: Rinpoche, what about Buddha nature, how it is explained in sutra, for example Uttaratantrashastra, for example.

CHNN: Buddha nature, how is explained in sutra, for example a very important sutra is Gyüd Lama (rgyud bla ma), you should study a little how it is explained in Gyüd Lama (Uttaratantra), this book, if you want to talk with ordinary people, you should go this way, not as we talk when we are introducing in the Dzogchen teaching. You could not speak, saying “Oh, your primordial state,” etc, that is not good. Not jumping, otherwise it is not good.

Some people, our practitioners, they like very much becoming like Drugpa Kunleg. I received letters of someone saying, “Oh, I am realized, I am illuminated” eh, Fabio? Fabio knows, because he has replied to many of this kind of letters, I don’t know what should I say, and then I ask Fabio to reply. Someone says, “Oh, I am realized, and you should confirm it!” Then I say, “If you are realized, there is nothing to confirm, you must know you are realized”…

If you have discovered your real nature, what you consider that is the realization, that is good, no? But still we are living in our dimension, still eating, drinking, sleeping, going to the toilet, that means we are human beings; this is called relative condition. So it is not sufficient to have a fantasy. Because it’s a fantasy that I am realized, no? Some people also give the time very precise, “In that day I realized myself”.

When we are explaining teachings, if you don’t follow well the principle of the teaching and you jump on something else saying, "Oh I am thinking … my way of seeing”, something like this, then later many problems arise. People also criticize. So it’s better to go very precisely, on the concept you should explain, and there is no problem. This is the way of teaching. Then the way of being, is connected with that. Then there is no problem. Everything becomes very smooth. Then, enjoy your life. Be present and live in present time. Especially practitioners. Ordinary people are always saying, “Oh, I have so many problems, my family problems, my wife, my husband, all create problems, all this has created problems, then I still feel them.” Many people have this kind of problems, but if you are living in the present you have not this problems: past is past! Finished. Some people say, “Oh, when I was a child, very young, I had some problems, still I have this problem.” But how is it possible? You are no more children, you are getting old! This is present time. But in present time, even if you are old, or young, anyone, if you are in this moment, in this present, if you enjoy, you do your best, being present, working with circumstances, life becomes very easy, also for communicating to other people; that way is very nice, more concrete. Not going too much after fantasy.

I am doing this, trying to do always that way. What I am trying to do I teach also to my students. Then I couldn’t find any difficulty. We know we are living in dualistic vision, of course there are always problems, they arise, manifest, this is normal. But a practitioner must not become conditioned by that problem, because we know very well, a practitioner knows we are living in the relative condition, why we need to get too much conditioned by that? We know that and we do our best, to find which is the solution, which is the better way for overcoming problems, then it’s finished. Relax. The Dalai Lama said, “When you are too much relaxed it’s not good”: that is true! Too much relaxed means you are distracted. If you are present and relaxed there is not any problem. Then you enjoy. It is very important to enjoy in life, nobody knows how long we are still alive; maybe one day, maybe one month, maybe one year, or two years, ten years, no one knows, but the important is to be present, to do our best: relaxed, enjoying. When we are relaxed and present authomatically we don’t do negative actions, and also we can progress in teaching, practices, etc. Fortunately we are Dzogchen practitioners, it’s not necessary to escape from the condition of the samsara, but there are always all the possibilities to integrate in the different circumstances, then there is no problem: this is what we should do.

OK, it is very good, thank you very much everybody, you do your best, I am very happy you are here in Tenerife, very nice place, and also we are developing very well in Dzamling Gar, here in this place, we do our best for finishing all. OK?

Mikael: We dedicate merits…



__________________________________________________________________

End of document 11-16-16
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Reading such documents is a sobering reminder that the DC before September 27, 2018 and the DC afterwards are two entirely different worlds. The old model is gone. SMS instructors are no longer quite what they were, and never will be. The advice they received made perfect sense in the old model. Now it must be interpreted again, and there is no obvious framework to apply.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Tata1 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:55 am Reading such documents is a sobering reminder that the DC before September 27, 2018 and the DC afterwards are two entirely different worlds. The old model is gone. SMS instructors are no longer quite what they were, and never will be. The advice they received made perfect sense in the old model. Now it must be interpreted again, and there is no obvious framework to apply.
Besides expecting the IDC to endorse sms instructors or old students as gurus is not so reasonable. How can we expect practitioners who occupy temporary charges on IDC to autentificate teachers or gurus. Just because i have faith in some student of rinpoche doesnt mean i can expect other people to have faith in that student.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Tata1 wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:17 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:55 am Reading such documents is a sobering reminder that the DC before September 27, 2018 and the DC afterwards are two entirely different worlds. The old model is gone. SMS instructors are no longer quite what they were, and never will be. The advice they received made perfect sense in the old model. Now it must be interpreted again, and there is no obvious framework to apply.
Besides expecting the IDC to endorse sms instructors or old students as gurus is not so reasonable. How can we expect practitioners who occupy temporary charges on IDC to autentificate teachers or gurus. Just because i have faith in some student of rinpoche doesnt mean i can expect other people to have faith in that student.
It could be sorted out. We would just need to make sure that ChNN and his teachings are singled out as something intrinsically above everything else (from the DC viewpoint, that is). We would thus be able to start inviting other teachers, those from the outside and, perhaps more controversially, those on the inside, and not be paranoid about takeovers and challenges. I somehow do not think we would be swamped with pretenders to the throne. Very few people would actually risk becoming teachers, and those who are Jax-like impostors would be very easy to identify. The bar is there, visible to all. Most instructors realise all too well that they are nowhere near.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 6:46 pm
It could be sorted out. We would just need to make sure that ChNN and his teachings are singled out as something intrinsically above everything else (from the DC viewpoint, that is). We would thus be able to start inviting other teachers, those from the outside and, perhaps more controversially, those on the inside, and not be paranoid about takeovers and challenges. I somehow do not think we would be swamped with pretenders to the throne. Very few people would actually risk becoming teachers, and those who are Jax-like impostors would be very easy to identify. The bar is there, visible to all. Most instructors realise all too well that they are nowhere near.
a few people would actually risk becoming teachers for monry and power.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

xjh2021 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 8:54 am
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 6:46 pm
It could be sorted out. We would just need to make sure that ChNN and his teachings are singled out as something intrinsically above everything else (from the DC viewpoint, that is). We would thus be able to start inviting other teachers, those from the outside and, perhaps more controversially, those on the inside, and not be paranoid about takeovers and challenges. I somehow do not think we would be swamped with pretenders to the throne. Very few people would actually risk becoming teachers, and those who are Jax-like impostors would be very easy to identify. The bar is there, visible to all. Most instructors realise all too well that they are nowhere near.
a few people would actually risk becoming teachers for monry and power.
Sure. In Europe few people would follow them -- way too few to warrant such risk taking. Look at how many people are attending instructors' events right now.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 11:56 am

Sure. In Europe few people would follow them -- way too few to warrant such risk taking. Look at how many people are attending instructors' events right now.
Could SMS instructor teacher Semde?
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

xjh2021 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 1:38 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 11:56 am

Sure. In Europe few people would follow them -- way too few to warrant such risk taking. Look at how many people are attending instructors' events right now.
Could SMS instructor teacher Semde?
Not sure where you are going here.

Those qualified to instruct on Semde (levels 1 to 3) can certainly instruct on Semde, to state the obvious. But it is not clear anymore what "instructing" means, and how it differs from teaching. You could argue that whenever one instructs on X, one is actually teaching X. Simplifies the situation -- and adds new complexity.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by xjh2021 »

We had a three day retreat with Igor Berkhin for Semde teachings in Paris, with a lot of joy and humor, profound teachings taught in a simple and clear way, aiming to discover the mind and the nature of mind. Igor helps audiences to understand Guru Garab Dorje’s teachings. Newcomers were gently taken by the hand to discover some insight into their nature or at least abide in a state of relaxed presence. Old practitioners could refresh their practices. Three days expanding light, searching, and finding nothing but freedom in a diligent and joyful atmosphere. Igor generously shared his experience and answered many questions so that we could all develop our knowledge and increase our capacities to continue the journey.
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

xjh2021 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 2:36 pmNewcomers were gently taken by the hand to discover some insight into their nature or at least abide in a state of relaxed presence
He teaches, then. Not merely instructs. Teaches. I though you resented the fact that Wes Guo has stopped merely instructing and started teaching?
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Re: Namkhai Norbu's SMS teacher give transmission in China and IDC did almost nothing

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I man, what does the OP expect, for the IDC to sue people?

The truth is that teachers sometimes become teachers based on reputation and student experience, sure, the institutional world of Tibetan Buddhism has it's credentialing, but there have been some famous teachers who had crap talked about them due to breaking of protocol, not doing things "the right way" etc... until they became famous; at which point at least some authorities changed their tune to "well, I guess he was qualified now that lots of people love him".

So, the bottom line is caveat emptor, and ultimately we cannot rely only on institutional validation, but have to be discerning students to the very best of our ability. Yes there are bad teachers out there, but that is not new, and IMO the idea that an institution can completely validate a teacher for you is nonsense, I'd even go so far as to call it a kind of spiritual laziness or ignorance, and I think that does conform with some of what Rinpoche said...just look at all the recent scandals in the Vajrayana world.

Not saying that lineage of practices is not important, it is vital of course, but that is not all we are talking about here.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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