Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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khemindas
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Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by khemindas »

I have a question. Nowadays and during whole history Mahayana was very sectarian compare to Theravada and Vajrayna. Usually Mayahana disciples were following only one school (Pure land or Zen (although it is complicated to call school who destroys mahayana scriptures as mahayana school)), one idea (Mahadhyamaka, Yogacara), or one Buddha (Amitabha or Vairocana), one Sutra (Heart Sutra or Pure land sutra) e.t.c. But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pmBut maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?
All sutras have been accepted by everyone, the difference is in what sutras have prominence. One modern example is Fo Guang Shan that embraces all eight schools of Chinese Buddhism (八宗兼弘).
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Kai lord »

khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pmBut maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally?
I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?
Historically? My guess will be Dharmaguptaka.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pm I have a question. Nowadays and during whole history Mahayana was very sectarian compare to Theravada and Vajrayna. Usually Mayahana disciples were following only one school (Pure land or Zen (although it is complicated to call school who destroys mahayana scriptures as mahayana school)), one idea (Mahadhyamaka, Yogacara), or one Buddha (Amitabha or Vairocana), one Sutra (Heart Sutra or Pure land sutra) e.t.c. But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?
Triumphalism =/= sectarianism. Triumphalism is everywhere in Buddhism, hopefully as skillful means. Vajrayana is a form of Mahayana, btw.

When applied broadly, your statement is incorrect, so it might be good to list specific instances of what you are calling sectarianism.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by narhwal90 »

The soto zen group I have attended (alas, now changing as things do...) was accepting of any sutra I ever mentioned, the only preferences I experienced were related to the difficulty of efficiently studying it as a group, and the level of experience with the sutra of the study leaders. Quite often we would spend an entire session on a single paragraph- comparing translations, various related commentaries, working our way into and out of intellectualism and so on- way more involved than just trading off reading through it. We were doing it by zoom, perhaps in person study is more easily wide-ranging.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by curtstein »

In the Tang Dynasty (618 to 907 AD), Mahayana tended to be rather sectarian. But from the Sung (960–1279 AD) to today, Mahayana in China became much less sectarian, and in Korea (and I believe also Vietnam) a similar non-sectarian trend became dominant. Japanese Buddhism, on the other hand, still tends to retain the more sectarian style of Tang era Chinese Buddhism.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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narhwal90 wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:02 pm The soto zen group I have attended (alas, now changing as things do...) was accepting of any sutra I ever mentioned, the only preferences I experienced were related to the difficulty of efficiently studying it as a group, and the level of experience with the sutra of the study leaders. Quite often we would spend an entire session on a single paragraph- comparing translations, various related commentaries, working our way into and out of intellectualism and so on- way more involved than just trading off reading through it. We were doing it by zoom, perhaps in person study is more easily wide-ranging.
In addition to this (which matches my experience of Soto Zen practice), there is plenty of historical evidence that Zen practitioners read/chanted/copied etc. sutras. Bodhidharma is supposed to have given a copy of the Lanka to his successor, Huike. Huineng had an awakening experience on hearing a portion of the Diamond Sutra be recited. Hakuin painted a portrait of Vimalakirti (embedded below, hopefully). Dogen referred often to the Lotus Sutra. Etc. etc.

I think it beyond cavil that Zen is a branch of orthodox Mahayana Buddhism, and that to assert otherwise is...quixotic. Doubly so if the argument is that Zen deprecates the sutras. It really doesn't.

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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pm I have a question. Nowadays and during whole history Mahayana was very sectarian compare to Theravada and Vajrayna. Usually Mayahana disciples were following only one school (Pure land or Zen (although it is complicated to call school who destroys mahayana scriptures as mahayana school)), one idea (Mahadhyamaka, Yogacara), or one Buddha (Amitabha or Vairocana), one Sutra (Heart Sutra or Pure land sutra) e.t.c. But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). ...
A point that no-one has mentioned is that the schools diverged from each other through geographical separation and cultural drift. Travel was difficult, slow and dangerous compared to today, so each community was relatively isolated and developed its own traditions and - eventually - scriptures.
There was usually no antagonism, no schism, just a drift apart.

That also means there isn't much resistance to re-integration, except for the usual human resistance to change and to power-sharing.

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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Astus wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:17 pm One modern example is Fo Guang Shan that embraces all eight schools of Chinese Buddhism (八宗兼弘).
I am not so sure about this. In practice, there are no tantric rites conducted at FGS. Teachings of other sects are touched upon lightly, if at all. I think the emphasis is really on Humanistic Buddhism, which is new and different from the foregoing traditions while inheriting aspects of them.
khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pm I have a question. Nowadays and during whole history Mahayana was very sectarian compare to Theravada and Vajrayna.
Theravāda is very sectarian, the Anuradhapura Mahāvihāra effectively wiped out all competition from Abhayagiri and Jetavana sects in the 12th century. Continuing divisions between the Maha Nikaya and Dhammayuttika Nikaya in Thailand are other examples, which exploded into outright violence. I think comparatively speaking, Mahāyāna has been, largely speaking, quite accommodating. Vajrayāna, by the way, is Mahāyāna.
khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pm Usually Mayahana disciples were following only one school (Pure land or Zen (although it is complicated to call school who destroys mahayana scriptures as mahayana school)), one idea (Mahadhyamaka, Yogacara), or one Buddha (Amitabha or Vairocana), one Sutra (Heart Sutra or Pure land sutra) e.t.c. But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally?
As Astus said, (maybe outside of some zen) "all sutras have been accepted by everyone." You cannot, for example, make sense of Pure Land without the premises laid out in the rest of the Mahāyāna tradition. There's a scaffolding that supports the whole picture in any one school that is based on all the preceding traditions. Honen, it is said, read the Buddhist canon many times—he never rejected anything, he only emphasised one thing. So, at the end of the day, there is not really a sect that has a broad emphasis except for modernist movements like Triratna (and they have some ethical issues and aren't for everyone).

For the past many years I have been running reading and practice groups (see my signature for some websites based on those groups) where we study all Mahāyāna sūtras and essentially attempt to fulfil the vows of Samāntabhadra. The point has always been to get a full picture of the Mahāyāna in its exoteric form (i.e., in the form where you don't need esoteric initiation, i.e. Vajrayāna). It has been quite successful.

The reason I am a Pure Lander, at the end of the day, is because within the exoteric Mahāyāna you still have to grapple with the fact that you will have three countless aeons until you can fulfil all the stages of the path. Samantabhadra, ultimately, entrusts to Amitābha—as do many other masters, such as Nagārjuna, Vasubandhu, etc., for their final attainment of Buddhahood because he enables you to allows you to bring it about in only one more lifetime. So, I don't see being a Pure Lander as a sectarian thing, it is just taking the entirety of the Mahāyāna path seriously and seeing what route to take at the end of my life—but I never once saw this as rejecting any other part of the path, only as fulfilling it. Probably, any broad non-sectarian Mahāyāna will end up having an aspect of Pure Land practise in regard to the matter of one's rebirth, even though one will continue to practice the path as best as one can in this life. If one takes seriously the bodhisattva vow, one will look for the fastest way to Buddhahood, and sticking around for three aeons with the risk of backsliding for the first aeon is not really a system or a strategy. To achieve a goal you need a good system, otherwise it's an empty aspiration that cannot be fulfilled.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Kai lord »

Sectarianism is found in all religions and early buddhism, thats why there were eighteen nikaya schools after the third buddhist Council.

As long as sectarianism does not lead to bloodshed and suffering, it can be a positive thing as it leads to evolution of ideas and new way of practicing.

Mahayana was born because of vast disagreement with the traditional nikaya schools. Nagarjuna was alone when he wrote refutation to the tenets from the abhidharma and thanks to his fearless courage, we have madhyamaka now.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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It is often called the Ekayana, the One Vehicle. In Tibetan circles from my limited experience, the more practice oriented teachers tend to be less and less sectarian. I've never really understood sectarianism, given the teachings on emptiness and compassion. A warm, open heart isn't divided.
khemindas wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 4:42 pm But maybe there was a certain Mahayana school that was accepting all sutras, doctines, concepts, ideas, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas equally? I'm asking only about pure Mahayana (non-tantric). And how about modern days if there are masters who have this equal approach nowadays and books of these masters in english?
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Matt J wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 12:59 pm I've never really understood sectarianism, given the teachings on emptiness and compassion. A warm, open heart isn't divided.
If history is any guide, it usually started out as some major disagreements in core tenets or doctrines, followed by serious open criticism or public debates, then eventually lead to outright ban of one side or outright hostility.

From an ordinary buddhist POV, we can view those bodhisattvas' motivation as pure and in their fervent quest to save all sentinel beings, tried fiercely to guide everyone to the path they perceived is the most effective or fastest by refuting all erroneous views that contradicted their own understanding.

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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by KathyLauren »

I don't know about any non-sectarian Mahayana sect. It seems like an oxymoron to me. However, there are certainly non-sectarian Mahayanists. I am one.

I hear people trying to tell me that these guys believe blah-blah-blah, while those guys believe blah-blah-blah. And I am sitting there wondering "What is the difference?" I think Mahayana sects are more similar than different.

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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

Post by Anders »

Zhen Li wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 5:22 am
Astus wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 5:17 pm One modern example is Fo Guang Shan that embraces all eight schools of Chinese Buddhism (八宗兼弘).
I am not so sure about this. In practice, there are no tantric rites conducted at FGS. Teachings of other sects are touched upon lightly, if at all. I think the emphasis is really on Humanistic Buddhism, which is new and different from the foregoing traditions while inheriting aspects of them.
That is a bit reductive imo. Within fgs you have pureland strains, Chan strains, tiantai strains etc.

Regardless I think it is representative of the Chinese approach to draw from all schools as all playing in the same sandbox. It is in many ways more accurate to think of Chinese Buddhist practice as pan-mahayana, with regards to doctrinal outlook and community, with a more specialised lense regarding one's own personal practice.

Contrast to Japanese Buddhism for example where the various schools are far more segregated both doctrinally, ritually and institutionally.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Anders wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:48 pm That is a bit reductive imo. Within fgs you have pureland strains, Chan strains, tiantai strains etc.
If by strain you mean they might mention a Chan saying in passing in a lecture, yes. If you mean practising meditation on huatou or mind-to-mind transmission (outside of a formalised procedure in a committee room) then I don't think it is fair to say that. FGS is Humanistic Buddhism. It definitely promotes preserving traditional understandings, but you cannot fully practice those approaches within FGS. Your priority really has to be Humanistic Buddhism or they will think you're not really invested in their way of doing things.
Anders wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:48 pm Regardless I think it is representative of the Chinese approach to draw from all schools as all playing in the same sandbox. It is in many ways more accurate to think of Chinese Buddhist practice as pan-mahayana, with regards to doctrinal outlook and community, with a more specialised lense regarding one's own personal practice.
This is true but also depends on one's level in the organisation. For a novice, you have to "practice together." You cannot do your own thing without permission. But for a full monastic, sure, they can do their own recitations in the evening (most tantric practices excluded). Even those who perform their own practices at night are probably the minority, those who have easier jobs. On the other hand, they keep many monastics working until late at night, so I am not sure they all have time to do their own practice. I frequently used the meditation hall outside of working hours, which seats hundreds, and I was usually alone. The same goes for the Amitabha hall. I think this really supports Master Hsing Yun's idea of "work as practice," so, returning to the office to work on some files is prioritised. This is consistent with the idea of working hard to "build a pure land on earth," but doesn't really make sense from the traditional approaches people have in mind.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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The human capacity to rationalize any action is indeed astounding.
Kai lord wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:19 pm From an ordinary buddhist POV, we can view those bodhisattvas' motivation as pure and in their fervent quest to save all sentinel beings, tried fiercely to guide everyone to the path they perceived is the most effective or fastest by refuting all erroneous views that contradicted their own understanding.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Matt J wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 8:37 am The human capacity to rationalize any action is indeed astounding.
Kai lord wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:19 pm From an ordinary buddhist POV, we can view those bodhisattvas' motivation as pure and in their fervent quest to save all sentinel beings, tried fiercely to guide everyone to the path they perceived is the most effective or fastest by refuting all erroneous views that contradicted their own understanding.
Yeah felt the same way when watching people rationalizing war.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Anders wrote: Sat May 21, 2022 1:48 pm Within fgs you have pureland strains, Chan strains, tiantai strains etc.

Regardless I think it is representative of the Chinese approach to draw from all schools as all playing in the same sandbox. It is in many ways more accurate to think of Chinese Buddhist practice as pan-mahayana, with regards to doctrinal outlook and community, with a more specialised lense regarding one's own personal practice.
I have found FGS / Chan Buddhism to be mostly non-sectarian and pan-mahayana too. They might even be pan-buddhist. Their monastic code is not really much different than Theravada, with celibate monks, nuns, one or two meals a day before noon.

The (FGS) HSI-LAI temple in Los Angeles is where Ayya Khema received her full ordination and they allowed her to ordain in her chosen tradition, Theravada.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Sectarianism will be there in any school since people are still struggling with greed, anger and delusion. From my limited experience I have not ran into any sectarian teachers to be honest. I have had Theravada teachers tell me that they don't agree with Mahayana, but if I want to study and explore it I should. Same for Mahayana teachers with Theravada. Obviously during arguments or debate different points will be brought up about each school which may sound sectarian, although I would be a bit shocked if a teacher came out and strictly said a sectarian comment. As far as history goes, every school has had problems I'm sure. Zhen Li talks about some of the problems in Theravada, in Tibet there were serious problems during the fifth Dalai Lama with the Jonang and Karma Kagyu. In Japan different schools have had sectarian periods, etc. Its all part of samsara.

A far as today goes I would be shocked to hear a teacher being extremely sectarian in a negative way. They should talk about their own tradition in a high way since it is the one they follow. If they did not think highly of their own tradition, why would they be following it?

Beside all that, I think looking at Tiantai or Tendai could be interesting since Zhiyi's goal was to unify all the incoming teachings to China.
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Re: Is there a non-sectarian Mahayana?

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Nicholas2727 wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 4:31 pm in Tibet there were serious problems during the fifth Dalai Lama with the Jonang and Karma Kagyu. In Japan different schools have had sectarian periods, etc. Its all part of samsara.
Fifth Dalai Lama was a high level bodhisattva (Some even ranked him as the best Dalai Lama) and he knew what he was doing, hence till today most regarded his actions as mere play of samsara and does not dwell on them. :namaste:
Beside all that, I think looking at Tiantai or Tendai could be interesting since Zhiyi's goal was to unify all the incoming teachings to China.
Errrr, you do know about the history between Nichiren and Tendai, don't you? Nevertheless its not a good non sectarianism example to use.
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