Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

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Norden
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Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Norden »

Hi guys,

Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva real? How did the worship of Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva begin and when was it?
Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva a historical figure?
Thank you
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Aemilius
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Aemilius »

It depends on what you accept as "proof". His existence as a bodhisattva began tens, thousands or millions of kalpas ago. According to Gandhavyuha and other Mahayana sutras and commentaries, where he is mentioned.
Last edited by Aemilius on Fri May 20, 2022 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Kai lord
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Kai lord »

Norden wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:23 am Hi guys,

Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva real? How did the worship of Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva begin and when was it?
Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva a historical figure?
Thank you
He is as real as all clear appearances in Samara. He was first mentioned in mahayana sutras like infinite life sutra together with Amitabha in the first two centuries after Christ.

Historical figure? Nope like most Mahasattvas, you can't see him with just naked eyes
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Aemilius
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Aemilius »

Avalokiteshvara manifests as three kayas, in the six worlds. Thus he can be seen even with fleshly eyes (mamsa chaksu).
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Zhen Li
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Zhen Li »

Kai lord wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:22 am
Norden wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:23 am Hi guys,

Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva real? How did the worship of Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva begin and when was it?
Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva a historical figure?
Thank you
He is as real as all clear appearances in Samara. He was first mentioned in mahayana sutras like infinite life sutra together with Amitabha in the first two centuries after Christ.

Historical figure? Nope like most Mahasattvas, you can't see him with just naked eyes
Echoing Aemilius, I know people who have seen him with their eyes (some with multiple witnesses).

This is a Buddhist forum, so the standards of historical inquiry are not necessarily trumped by faith and personal acquaintance.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Norden wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 10:23 am Is Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva real?
Do you mean “real” in the sense that you are “real”?
How real is that?
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:43 am
Echoing Aemilius, I know people who have seen him with their eyes (some with multiple witnesses).

This is a Buddhist forum, so the standards of historical inquiry are not necessarily trumped by faith and personal acquaintance.
I'd be quite interested in those accounts.

I know some have perceived HH Dalailama being inseperable from Chenrezig, which is logical given that he is an emanation of his.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Kai lord »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:55 am
Zhen Li wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:43 am
Echoing Aemilius, I know people who have seen him with their eyes (some with multiple witnesses).

This is a Buddhist forum, so the standards of historical inquiry are not necessarily trumped by faith and personal acquaintance.
I'd be quite interested in those accounts.

I know some have perceived HH Dalailama being inseperable from Chenrezig, which is logical given that he is an emanation of his.
Those who practiced nyung ne for all their lives or done at least 108 times, reported to have clear visions of chenrezig.
Life is like a game, either you win or lose!
Life is like a fight, either you live or die!
Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
Life is like a dream, either you know or not!!!
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Aemilius
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Aemilius »

"Furthermore, in the seventh bhūmi (saptamabhūmi), the bodhisattva obtains the knowledge of the true nature (satyalakṣaṇa) of dharmas. From then on, he adorns (alaṃkaroti) the buddhafields (buddhakṣetra) converts (vinayati) beings, worships (pūjayati) the Buddhas and acquires great miraculous powers (mahābhijñā): he divides his own body into innumerable bodies and rains down the seven jewels (saptaratna), flowers (puṣpa), perfumes (gandha), banners (patakā) and garlands (nicaya) from each of these bodies; he transforms himself into a great lamp (dipa), like Mount Sumeru and pays homage to the Buddhas and assemblies of bodhisattvas of the ten directions. Then in marvelous accents, he celebrates the qualities of the Buddhas in verse; he pays homage (vandana) to them, worships (pūja), respects (satkārā) and welcomes them (pratyudgamana).

"He causes a rain of all kinds of food (āhāra) and clothing (vastra) to fall on innumerable lands of the hungry ghosts (pretaviṣaya) of the ten directions, enough to fill them fully. Having been filled to satisfaction (tṛpti), all the pretas produce the mind of supreme and perfect enlightenment (anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi).

"Then he goes to the animal realm (tiryagyoni); he commands the animals to improve themselves and to cast aside all feelings of mutual hostility; he chases away their fears (bhaya) and each is gratified according to their needs. Having obtained satisfaction, all the animals produce the mind of anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi.

"Among the damned (naraka) plunged in the immense torments of the hells, he causes the extinction of the hell fires and the cooling of the boiling water. When their punishment has ceased and their hearts are healed, the damned feel neither hunger (bubhukṣā) nor thirst (pipāsa); they obtain rebirth among the god or humans and that is why they produce the mind of anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi.

"To the poor people (daridra) of the ten directions, the bodhisattva gives good fortune; as for the rich (dhanya), he rejoices them by satisfying them with various flavors (rasa) and colors (rūpa); this is why they all produce the mind of anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi.

"The bodhisattva goes to the gods of the desire realm (kāmadhātudeva) and makes them renounce their heavenly sense pleasures (kāmasukha); he rejoices them by giving them this wondrous jewel that is the bliss of the Dharma (dharmasukha); this is why they all produced the mind of anuttarasamyaksaṃbodhi."

from MahaPrajñaParamita Shastra https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 25243.html
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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curtstein
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by curtstein »

Two questions that are closely related to the one posed in this thread are:
1. Is Amitabha real?
2. Is Amitabha's Pure Land real?

Here is a long quote from one of the most important teachers in my own tradition
(Korean Soen) that directly addresses these two questions about Amitabha and his
Pure Land.

In particular, Sosan Taesa directly takes on those who say things like: "Your
own mind is already the Pure Land. There is no such thing as being reborn in
some such place!” Or “This is lowclass teaching! Your own true nature is Amita
Buddha, not different. There is not some ‘other’ Amita Buddha who meets you!”

To see how he responds (which, in my opinion, is a masterful display of how to
apply "the two truths" in a very practical and helpful way), read on:
The Fifth Patriarch once said, “It is better to keep your true, original
mind than to contemplate the Buddhas of the ten directions.” The
Six Patriarch said, “If you only contemplate other Buddhas, you will never
break free from life and death. You should keep your buddha mind as it is
in order to arrive on the other shore.” And he taught
further, “Buddha originates in your own nature. There is no need to
seek outside yourself.” He also said, “Ignorant people chant in the
hope of being born in the Pure Land, or Land of Utmost Bliss, but
true practitioners only focus instead on clearing their own mind.”
Also, “The Buddha does not save sentient beings. Rather, sentient
beings save themselves the instant they awaken to their true mind.”

These eminent teachers pointed directly to our original mind, without
depending on skillful means: there is no other teaching than this.
And yet, however direct and effective such teaching may be, we
must also be able to say that paradise and Amita Buddha with his
forty-eight vows really do exist. Therefore it is taught that one who
recites Amita Buddha’s name even ten times will attain rebirth in a
lotus flower, thus escaping the cycle of birth and death. This teaching
has been given by all the Buddhas in the three divisions of time; all
bodhisattvas of the ten directions vow to attain such a rebirth, too.
The stories of those who have been reborn this way—either in the
past or in the present—have been faithfully handed down to us. So it
is hoped that no practitioners hold to mistaken views, and simply
practice hard.

Amita is a Sanskrit word meaning “infinite life” and “infinite light,”
and is used as a name for the Buddha of the ten directions and the
three divisions of time. As a younger practitioner, he was called
Venerable Dharmakara (“Store of the Dharma”). Making the fortyeight
vows before Lokesvararaja Buddha, he proclaimed, “When I
attain to buddhahood, should any of the numberless devas or
humans residing in the ten directions—even down to the tiniest
insects—chant my name but ten times, I will cause their rebirth in my
heavenly realm. I hereby vow never to enter fully into Nirvana until
this vow is accomplished.”

Ancient sages in other times pronounced similar practices: “The
sound of chanting even a single word weakens even demonic forces,
and erases one’s name from the lists of the dead in Hell. Instead,
one is reborn as a lotus flower in a pond of purest gold.” The
Repentance Dharma teachings expand on this, saying, “We can use
our own innate power for spiritual practice, and we can use the spiritual
power of others. Progress through reliance on the former is
slower, while the latter is fast. Imagine two men who wish to cross a
vast sea: One man plants trees, raises them through hard work, cuts
them down when they are grown, and makes a boat. Then he
attempts his journey. This is what it is like to rely solely on your own
power. But another man simply borrows someone else’s boat and
crosses the sea directly. Anyone can see that this is a faster method.
It can be likened to relying on the power of the Buddha in our
spiritual practice.”

This sutra also says, “A child who is threatened with fire or rising
waters cries out desperately, and his parents rush to save him. In the
same way, when a man chants the name of the Buddha, even in the
hour of his death, the Buddha will greet him with mysterious powers.
The Buddha’s great love and great compassion are greater even
than the love of a parent for their child, because sentient beings’
torment in the ocean of life and death is even more excruciating than
anything inflicted by fires or floods.”

Of course, there are people who may hear teachings like this and
say, “Nonsense! Your own mind is already the Pure Land. There is
no such thing as being reborn in some such place!” Or “This is lowclass
teaching! Your own true nature is Amita Buddha, not different.
There is not some ‘other’ Amita Buddha who meets you!”

Such words might have some truth to them, but they are not the
whole view. The reality of our condition is different from just those
views. Amita Buddha is perfect, having neither desire nor anger. But
are we free from desire or anger? The Buddha is known to be able to
change a raging hell into a world of lotus flowers just as effortlessly
as you might turn your hand over. And yet do we who live in hourly
fear of tumbling headlong into hell due to the unstoppable
momentum of our karma ever change this hell into lotus flowers?
The Buddha perceives infinite billions of galaxies as your or my eye
might perceive an object right in front of our nose. And yet we cannot
see the things that are happening outside the thin walls of this very
room, much less perceive the infinite billions of galaxies in every
direction!

In the same way, though at the most fundamental level our nature
is the very nature of Amita Buddha, our actions are those of sentient beings.
The former and the latter, the ideal and the reality, are as far
apart as heaven and earth. Master Kuei-feng was clearly aware of
this when he said, “Even one who attains sudden enlightenment in
the end must do continuous, gradual practice.” How right he is!
Now let us turn again to the one who claims that he is already the
same as Amita Buddha and ask him, How is it that Shakyamuni
Buddha was manifested at the urging of this universe? And how is it
that an Amita Buddha could appear as such a spontaneous
manifestation?

You can only truly understand if you reflect deeply within yourself.
When you find yourself suddenly being pulled through death’s door,
and there is no recourse back, are you unshakably confident that
you can find the freedom taught by the Buddhas even in that
moment? If not, then you should fully examine your foolish pride to
see whether it would not be better for you to discard that right now,
lest it trick you into the hellish torments of a lower rebirth!

Great Patriarchs of the dharma though they were, even such as
Asvaghosha and Nagarjuna must have felt this, for they always
emphasized the crucial importance of striving toward a good rebirth
in our next life. Then who are we to disregard so easily the matter of
our next rebirth? The Buddha himself declared the importance of our
diligently striving: “The Pure Land of the Western Paradise is far, far
from here. You must pass 100,000 lands, and even 8,000 more
regions, in order to reach it.” Thus he freely employed words about
space and distance to give an almost visual sense, for the sake of
leading those of dull perceptions, to prod them on. But in other
places he said with equal sincerity, “The Pure Land of the Western
Paradise is not a faraway place. Why? Because the very mind of
sentient beings is the place of Amita Buddha.” This teaching reveals
his free use of expedient means for leading those of quicker
faculties.

So we can see from all of this that the teachings can freely use
seemingly different expedient means and expressions to point to the
same universal substance. Only the words themselves have a
different appearance and meaning, yet the point they communicate
is the same. For one whose insight is in accord with his actions, it is
possible to see through what is said to be “near” or “far.” This is wh
your tradition can embrace both ways of practice: calling out to Amita
Buddha, like Hui-yuan, and looking directly into true nature, like
Jui-yen.
From: "The Mirror of Zen The Classic Guide to Buddhist Practice by Zen Master So Sahn"
Translated by Boep Joeng and Hyon Gak
https://www.shambhala.com/the-mirror-of-zen-1047.html
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Aemilius
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Aemilius »

Where do you live? If you decide to move to New Zealand, is that in your own mind? Or does "New Zealand" exist outside and independent of your mind and your perception? What kind of process do you have to go through, if you really decide to move there? Does living in New Zealand affect your mind (and body)? Do people become different when they have lived in New Zealand for ten or fifteen years or longer? How does it all take place?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:55 am
Zhen Li wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:43 am
Echoing Aemilius, I know people who have seen him with their eyes (some with multiple witnesses).

This is a Buddhist forum, so the standards of historical inquiry are not necessarily trumped by faith and personal acquaintance.
I'd be quite interested in those accounts.
I have had experiences immediately after calling on Avalokiteshvara, that were not only specifically connected to the reason for calling on, but went beyond that, to a more profound level. But I’m not going into personal details here.

As I think I mentioned before, it’s like, if you are hungry and ask Avalokiteshvara for a sandwich, you might never get that sandwich, but you might, soon, quite unexpectedly, find yourself in charge of managing a soup kitchen for the needy.

In other words, the way you are helped may be by suddenly finding yourself in the position of helping others, which is way more than you asked for. So maybe, as the saying goes, “be careful what you ask for”.

Of course you can never “prove” that there is Avalokiteshvara. You can only point to unusually specific and transformational events which occur, and decide that they are valid “evidence” or not. Or, you can ask a highly realized teacher whom you trust for their opinion about your experiences.

And you won’t find your answer if you only approach this question hypothetically. If you just think, “okay, let’s suppose Avalokiteshvara is real. I want a pizza!” and then you look out of your front door to see if there is a pizza delivery, that’s not going to happen.

But so what? Instead of second-hand accounts which you will either believe or not believe, it’s better to sincerely call on Avalokiteshvara yourself, with an actual need, and see what happens, and go with that.
EMPTIFUL.
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Zhen Li
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by Zhen Li »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 12:55 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:55 am
Zhen Li wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 11:43 am
Echoing Aemilius, I know people who have seen him with their eyes (some with multiple witnesses).

This is a Buddhist forum, so the standards of historical inquiry are not necessarily trumped by faith and personal acquaintance.
I'd be quite interested in those accounts.
I have had experiences immediately after calling on Avalokiteshvara, that were not only specifically connected to the reason for calling on, but went beyond that, to a more profound level. But I’m not going into personal details here.

As I think I mentioned before, it’s like, if you are hungry and ask Avalokiteshvara for a sandwich, you might never get that sandwich, but you might, soon, quite unexpectedly, find yourself in charge of managing a soup kitchen for the needy.

In other words, the way you are helped may be by suddenly finding yourself in the position of helping others, which is way more than you asked for. So maybe, as the saying goes, “be careful what you ask for”.

Of course you can never “prove” that there is Avalokiteshvara. You can only point to unusually specific and transformational events which occur, and decide that they are valid “evidence” or not. Or, you can ask a highly realized teacher whom you trust for their opinion about your experiences.

And you won’t find your answer if you only approach this question hypothetically. If you just think, “okay, let’s suppose Avalokiteshvara is real. I want a pizza!” and then you look out of your front door to see if there is a pizza delivery, that’s not going to happen.

But so what? Instead of second-hand accounts which you will either believe or not believe, it’s better to sincerely call on Avalokiteshvara yourself, with an actual need, and see what happens, and go with that.
Personally, I didn't experience things directly from worshipping Avalokiteśvara, but I believe the accounts I heard. I think it is better for me to write it down properly, or better yet, have the person who told me write it down so I can get the story right before sharing it.

I think it depends on one's karmic connections but also one's situation. The Buddha will display signs or manifest in certain forms when it is right for maturing sentient beings in that form. Personally, I and about five other people experienced a divine smell, at the part of the Aṣṭasāhasrikā where it says that a divine subtle smell can be scented devas come to listen to the sūtra, on the precise day that we were studying that chapter. It was more subtle and graceful than any incense or perfume. Frequently in studying the Pure Land sutras or commentaries, and reciting Nembutsu, I have seen lights from my Butsudan. These are just some things I can report first-hand, and I don't doubt that people definitely experienced similar things in worshipping Avalokiteśvara.
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Re: Avalokitesvara Bodhisattva

Post by GrapeLover »

Zhen Li wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:04 am
Personally, I didn't experience things directly from worshipping Avalokiteśvara, but I believe the accounts I heard. I think it is better for me to write it down properly, or better yet, have the person who told me write it down so I can get the story right before sharing it.
We will be most excited 🤩
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