Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

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bartolomay
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Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by bartolomay »

Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?
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Astus
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Astus »

bartolomay wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:45 pm Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?
For a stream enterer there is the mirror of the teaching, see e.g. SN 55.8, and also the other discourses in SN 55.
For an arhat see e.g. SN 35.153.

For bodhisattvas see e.g. The Ten Bhūmis, and commentaries like Nāgārjuna's Treatise on the Ten Bodhisattva Grounds.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Astus wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 9:31 pm
bartolomay wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:45 pm Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?
For a stream enterer there is the mirror of the teaching, see e.g. SN 55.8, and also the other discourses in SN 55.
For an arhat see e.g. SN 35.153.

For bodhisattvas see e.g. The Ten Bhūmis, and commentaries like Nāgārjuna's Treatise on the Ten Bodhisattva Grounds.
:good:
This answer is a lot better than my semi-snarky "Well, if you have to ask..." would have been.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by reiun »

In the Zen branch of Mahayana, the teacher is relied on to definitively confirm awakening.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:12 pm This answer is a lot better than my semi-snarky "Well, if you have to ask..." would have been.
well, that would have been my snarky reply.

But I recall a teacher being asked this or a similar question (“how do you know when you’ve become enlightened?”). His answer was that, when you are sitting on your nice cushion in your nice meditation space, you can have all sorts of experiences like you are now awakened. But the test is how it pans out in everyday life.

And usually, for most people, they will know before the end of the day whether they are still trapped or not, because there are always things that make us lose our patience, or become angry or overly attached to temporary, conflicting emotions, or attached to desire for things we think will make us happy. Usually something will confront us, test us, and that’s the only way to really measure one’s practice.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 4:27 am
FiveSkandhas wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 10:12 pm This answer is a lot better than my semi-snarky "Well, if you have to ask..." would have been.
well, that would have been my snarky reply.

But I recall a teacher being asked this or a similar question (“how do you know when you’ve become enlightened?”). His answer was that, when you are sitting on your nice cushion in your nice meditation space, you can have all sorts of experiences like you are now awakened. But the test is how it pans out in everyday life.

And usually, for most people, they will know before the end of the day whether they are still trapped or not, because there are always things that make us lose our patience, or become angry or overly attached to temporary, conflicting emotions, or attached to desire for things we think will make us happy. Usually something will confront us, test us, and that’s the only way to really measure one’s practice.
If you really take to heart Master Dogen's dictum that there is no separation between practice and realization, the whole question falls apart as a kind of false dichotomy anyway, doesn't it? I mean, Master Dogen wasn't just flapping his gums or making some lofty statement only Zen ears can understand. I really take him at his word: before realization you practice, after realization you keep practicing, so from a purely practical point of view, why not just focus on practice and let realization take care of itself?

One doesn't have to be Soto or even Zen to take this advice to heart...didn't Nichiren say something to the effect that chanting the Daimoku in front of the Gohonzon was more and no less than enlightenment itself? What about Shinran and Ipppen collapsing time so the moment of faith (or chanting, depending on which Master you follow) is a moment of timelessness connection with Amida-sama and assurance of salvation? Shingon's Kukai-sama spoke of"Buddhahood in this very body" through ritual use of body speech and mind. The unity of path and fruition has been spoken of in various ways in Tibet, too has it not?

Just focus on practice and eventually something will happen. "It always already will have happened," right?

No worries, no hurries, if all else fails Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha will scrape you off the flattened floor of Avici Hell and help you make your way home at last, right?

So it seems to these humble ears. Perhaps I'm not qualified to opine on such things. But maybe it's worth thinking about...
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Astus
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Astus »

Yongming Yanshou wrote ten questions to measure one's comprehension, see here.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by master of puppets »

one thing - may be - don't do evil. :crying:
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Archie2009 »

Read Longchenpa's Chöying Dzöd (The Precious Treasury of Dharmadhātu) if you want to know.
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Inedible »

Wait a few years and see what changes. Keep practicing. Don't tell anyone other than your teacher. It is really common to overestimate realizations and then be surprised when things slide back to normal.
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Tao »

Astus wrote: Wed May 11, 2022 9:17 am Yongming Yanshou wrote ten questions to measure one's comprehension, see here.
Very nice.

Thank you a lot for your translation.
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Astus
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

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Tao wrote: Thu May 12, 2022 8:20 amVery nice.
Thank you a lot for your translation.
It's Albert Welter's translation from the book Yongming Yanshou's Conception of Chan in the Zongjing lu: A Special Transmission Within the Scriptures.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Kai lord »

bartolomay wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:45 pm Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?
The degree to which negative emotions like anger and desire affect you. If you feel none of the stated two, that means you are well beyond most.
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Tao »

Mahamudra take on it:

It is accepted that the maximum attainable level of buddhahood in this life is nothing more and nothing less than a global awareness of certainty that will arise in the meditator vividly and spontaneously. It is a transcendent consciousness without any differentiation between absorption and post-absorption, a consciousness that observes the mind as natural illumination and as such is detached from the purification process and the purified mind. The intrinsic nature of this mind is such that there is nothing that needs to be abandoned or fixed by spiritual countermeasures. The immanent understanding of this state is that it is not conditioned by the cycle of birth and death.

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

So nice! :) I love Dakpo

PS: Spanish version: https://blogdetao.org/2021/05/14/el-lim ... esta-vida/
bartolomay
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by bartolomay »

Tao wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:04 am Mahamudra take on it:

It is accepted that the maximum attainable level of buddhahood in this life is nothing more and nothing less than a global awareness of certainty that will arise in the meditator vividly and spontaneously. It is a transcendent consciousness without any differentiation between absorption and post-absorption, a consciousness that observes the mind as natural illumination and as such is detached from the purification process and the purified mind. The intrinsic nature of this mind is such that there is nothing that needs to be abandoned or fixed by spiritual countermeasures. The immanent understanding of this state is that it is not conditioned by the cycle of birth and death.

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

So nice! :) I love Dakpo

PS: Spanish version: https://blogdetao.org/2021/05/14/el-lim ... esta-vida/
Wow. Such a wonderful quote. Can you say from which source is it?
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by boda »

bartolomay wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 7:45 pm Is there any unmistaken signs of realization?
Levitation.
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by Tao »

bartolomay wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:08 pm
Tao wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 11:04 am Mahamudra take on it:

It is accepted that the maximum attainable level of buddhahood in this life is nothing more and nothing less than a global awareness of certainty that will arise in the meditator vividly and spontaneously. It is a transcendent consciousness without any differentiation between absorption and post-absorption, a consciousness that observes the mind as natural illumination and as such is detached from the purification process and the purified mind. The intrinsic nature of this mind is such that there is nothing that needs to be abandoned or fixed by spiritual countermeasures. The immanent understanding of this state is that it is not conditioned by the cycle of birth and death.

Dakpo Tashi Namgyal

So nice! :) I love Dakpo

PS: Spanish version: https://blogdetao.org/2021/05/14/el-lim ... esta-vida/
Wow. Such a wonderful quote. Can you say from which source is it?
I presume it's from Moonbeams of Mahamudra (by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal), but now I couldnt find it :(

Anyway it's a great, great, great book.

Later I will check my other two books by Dakpo.
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Re: Is there a way to tell if one achieved direct realization?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

Birth in Amida Buddha's pure land.
Namu Amida Butsu
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