Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

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dpcalder
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Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by dpcalder »

In the Pali Canon’s Aggañña Sutta, it appears to offer a creation myth in which spiritual beings develop physical bodies as a result of greed for physical pleasures

Are there parallels to this in the Tibetan tradition? If so, where can I find information about it? I have heard that some Tibetan writings even sound theistic in speaking of emanations that emerge and then take on physical bodies. Is this true?
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Sādhaka
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Sādhaka »

Dzogchen cosmogony says things similar to the Aggañña Sutra, yet provides more detail.

For said details though, likely better to receive them from a Lineage Holder.
Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:36 pm Dzogchen cosmogony says things similar to the Aggañña Sutra, yet provides more detail.

For said details though, likely better to receive them from a Lineage Holder.
These myths are not some privy information. And, frankly, most westerners do not seem to understand that Dzogchen cosmogony is a minor variation on the cosmogony in the third chapter of the Abidharmakośabhṣya.

Specifically the mythology of the Aggañña sutra in Tibetan sources is to be found in Asanga's Yogacārabhhumi.
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heart
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by heart »

dpcalder wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:57 am In the Pali Canon’s Aggañña Sutta, it appears to offer a creation myth in which spiritual beings develop physical bodies as a result of greed for physical pleasures

Are there parallels to this in the Tibetan tradition? If so, where can I find information about it? I have heard that some Tibetan writings even sound theistic in speaking of emanations that emerge and then take on physical bodies. Is this true?
Maybe this can help

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:10 pm
Maybe this can help
Should be read with care, it is not a complete account.
Natan
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Natan »

Vajrayana itself is Abhidharma. The Kalachakra Tantra give a complete picture.
Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:08 pm Vajrayana itself is Abhidharma.
It is true that Vajrayāna is included in Abhidharma, according to one way of categorizing things.
Natan
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:38 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 5:08 pm Vajrayana itself is Abhidharma.
It is true that Vajrayāna is included in Abhidharma, according to one way of categorizing things.
Well the way I see it, and I accept it's not the only way, is Abhidharma is a basket of Buddha's teaching, and so it cannot be a Shastra written by an Arhant according to research. It must have been taught by Buddha directly somehow. Since tantras are words of Buddha, are Mahayana and Abhidharma, the Vajrayana is Mahayana Abhidharma.
Kai lord
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Kai lord »

dpcalder wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 3:57 am In the Pali Canon’s Aggañña Sutta, it appears to offer a creation myth in which spiritual beings develop physical bodies as a result of greed for physical pleasures

Are there parallels to this in the Tibetan tradition? If so, where can I find information about it? I have heard that some Tibetan writings even sound theistic in speaking of emanations that emerge and then take on physical bodies. Is this true?
On the fun side, some prominent Tibetan noble families like the Khon have their own famous creation myth that their ancestors were descended from beings of light from a second dhyana plane of existence called Heavenly Clear Light.

Influences from agganna or similar theme found in the sutras? Well, its up to one to decide for themselves.
Malcolm
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Re: Vajrayana parallels to the Aggañña Sutta of the Pali Canon

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 2:55 pm
On the fun side, some prominent Tibetan noble families like the Khon have their own famous creation myth that their ancestors were descended from beings of light from a second dhyana plane of existence called Heavenly Clear Light.

Influences from agganna or similar theme found in the sutras? Well, its up to one to decide for themselves.
'Od gsal lha are pre-buddhist. They cannot be Ābhāsvara devas since they belong to the desire realm. Indeed, the Khon clan identify a very specific mountain peak to the north of the Tsangpo river as the site where the sky gods (gram aha) as they are also called descended in Tibet. The middle brother was called gYu ring, or Long Turquoise. His sons were the famous seven Ma sang brothers, which include the dharmapāla Vajrasadhu. The Ma sang are also credited with inventing divination and gambling with dice. The ancient Tibetan game of Pagchen is credited to them as well. In any case, it is impossible for form realm gods to descend to the desire realm, much less the human realm, and even if they were to do so, humans could not interact with them. There is a similar myth from the lCe clan, only in this case, the 'od gsal lha descend in Tajik, and conquered the humans there, before moving into Mang yul, Tibet via Zhang Zhung.

Thus, these so-called gods from which these Tibetan clans claim descent are pre-buddhist classes of deities, and have nothing to with Indian cosmology at all.
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