karma and its fruit or fruits

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clyde
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karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:03 am
clyde wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:56 pmI don’t think he taught that a volitional act has one and only one ‘fruit’.
Yes, actually he did. Each action has exactly one vipaka, ripening. Otherwise, there is the problem of a cause existing at the same time as it’s result.

Malcolm, The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Sādhaka »

If you think about it, one single action has many moments within it (the Sanskrit term for a single moment, that is like 1/60 of a fingersnap, would be ksana, I believe?); and we could possibly be accumulating traces within our alayavijnana at the rate of 1 per 1/60 of a finger snap, if it’s possible to have an instant of volition within each said 1/60th fingersnaps….

Of course one could also be accumulating merits at the rate of one merit per ksana, on the brightside. Just something to ponder in regard to this topic….
Last edited by Sādhaka on Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Review abhidharma.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Miorita »

clyde wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:03 am
clyde wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:56 pmI don’t think he taught that a volitional act has one and only one ‘fruit’.
Yes, actually he did. Each action has exactly one vipaka, ripening. Otherwise, there is the problem of a cause existing at the same time as it’s result.

Malcolm, The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
Every action has only one ripening. I think that's what he referred to.

The effects remain connected to each other even if multiple because they are connected back to one cause. Invisible time threads connect their trajectories in and through time. That's why it is one ripening even if it may appear as multiple effects. It's one harvest but it can be all over the place. It's not Buddhism, it's logical inference.

If you see time as very disconnected and made of random sequences, you could be (are) wrong. Time is perceived more of a continuous flow. I hope it explains the interconnectedness of effects that you would like to see it appearing as random expression in the field, but in fact it isn't. If you randomize too much, your little extra touch arrives at defying the very definition of cause and effect.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

There seems to be a common misconception that "causes" and "effects" are something other than moments of consciousness. One moment of consciousness to the next are connected in that each may, but not necessarily, successively be the object of the next.

What we perceive as a manipulation of matter is actually a series of moments of consciousness that arise, often, in connection with moments of sense door consciousness.

AFAIK, abhidharma is silent as to the phenomena materialists perceive as causality, instead viewing such as primarily moments of consciousness.

To perceive multiple effects from a moment of consciousness is the conclusion of an unrefined examination of process.

This is why the idea of "multi-tasking" is nonsense. Each moment of consciousness is discrete.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:03 am
clyde wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:56 pmI don’t think he taught that a volitional act has one and only one ‘fruit’.
Yes, actually he did. Each action has exactly one vipaka, ripening. Otherwise, there is the problem of a cause existing at the same time as it’s result.

Malcolm, The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakośabhaṣyā 4:95a:

One action projects one arising.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

clyde wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:47 pm
The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
I think what the teachers are referring to (at least it has been my experience) are the residual or ripple effects. For example, if you contribute in some way to a Dharma center, your actions, even minimal, will help to make the teachings available to many people. So, even if you donate just a dollar or volunteer to help clean or do some other task, the residual effect is that the action will benefit more people than just giving the dollar to a beggar or cleaning out your garage, even though, at the moment, each may seem to need it more than the Dharma center does.

I don’t know if any scriptures specifically describe this, but the “better than a thousand” chapter of the Dhammapada sort of alludes to it, because the question is really about comparative results, and isn’t so much about a one-to-one or two-for-one trade off.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pm Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakośabhaṣyā 4:95a:

One action projects one arising.
These are moments of consciousness, though. A volitional moment (or rather series of moments) of consciousness conditioning the ones that follow, but each successive and discrete.

These are different than the colloquial sense (in the Buddhist sense) of cause and effect of the sort PVS refers to. For instance, dana is not about the consequences of the act of generosity per se. This is illustrated for instance in Jataka tales where the Buddha, as a king, gave away everything in the kingdom to every person who came asking, ruining the kingdom, and when he was exiled by his subjects, accompanied only by his wife and child. When the brahmin (Devadatta) came and asked for the wife and child, he gave them away, too. No one was happy with the king's generosity and rather he caused a lot of suffering in the immediate term to those who depended on him. The Buddha, though, was demonstrating perfection of non-attachment and we can intuit the qualities of his consciousness. Dana is about the cultivation of non-attachment. This is evident in counsel about how to practice it where one ought not worry about the effects on the recipient or on oneself. The benefits of generosity for lay people is the softening of attachment though it is often explained that the benefits are enhanced when the recipient is the Buddha or sangha. Arguably, samsara gets mixed in and it takes on a variety of curious and sometimes grotesque appearances - personally, the insides of many temples strike me as gaudy and offend my aesthetic sensibilities; the wealth of some Buddhist leaders and organizations is frankly obscene. I am aware these judgments are my own moments of defiled consciousness marked by attachments/aversions and I suppose the explosion of gold leaf and colors, the prosperity of institutions and leaders can encourage the mind-moment to mind-moment faith of others...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Sādhaka wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 1:16 am If you think about it, one single action has many moments within it (the Sanskrit term for a single moment, that is like 1/60 of a fingersnap, would be ksana, I believe?); and we could possibly be accumulating traces within our alayavijnana at the rate of 1 per 1/60 of a finger snap, if it’s possible to have an instant of volition within each said 1/60th fingersnaps….

Of course one could also be accumulating merits at the rate of one merit per ksana, on the brightside. Just something to ponder in regard to this topic….
If I understood you correctly, what we would conventionally call a “doing” (e.g. - giving someone a gift or gossiping) or “event” (achieving a goal or milestone) is really a multitude of actions; so if each action has one effect, since there are a multitude of actions, there are a multitude of effects. And each volitional action is preceded by an intention.

Is that how you understand it?

The karmic clock may beat at 1/60th of a finger snap, but I don’t experience my thoughts that quickly, so I don’t recall the details of the actions conventionally called “giving someone a gift” or “gossiping”, but that karmic stream of volitional actions has what appear to be multiple effects.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pm
clyde wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:47 pm Malcolm, The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakośabhaṣyā 4:95a:

One action projects one arising.
Thank you. I’ll take a look at it.

To be clear, this is the work of a Buddhist scholar/monk, not a direct teaching of the Buddha, yes?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pm
clyde wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:47 pm Malcolm, The Buddhist teachers I’ve heard or read who have addressed or mentioned this issue have all presented it as “fruits”, a multitude of effects.

Can you point to where the Buddha said that each karmic event caused one and only one effect?
Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakośabhaṣyā 4:95a:

One action projects one arising.
Thank you. I’ll take a look at it.

To be clear, this is the work of a Buddhist scholar/monk, not a direct teaching of the Buddha, yes?
It's Abhidharma, i.e., advanced Dharma analysis by arhats.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

clyde wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:47 pm that karmic stream of volitional actions has what appear to be multiple effects.
Appear is a critical word there.

Its how things appear, which is a subjective apprehension. Its a series of discrete mind-moments that appears as multiple effects (the way the rabid succession of frames appears to create motion and a deep, textured, and apparently real world on the movie screen).
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:14 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:50 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 2:38 pm

Vasubandhu, Abhidharmakośabhaṣyā 4:95a:

One action projects one arising.
Thank you. I’ll take a look at it.

To be clear, this is the work of a Buddhist scholar/monk, not a direct teaching of the Buddha, yes?
It's Abhidharma, i.e., advanced Dharma analysis by arhats.
So, not a direct teaching of the Buddha, but not something to be lightly dismissed.

And it seems: a) that is the system held by a School; and b) that it may only refer to birth.
See: http://lukashevichus.info/knigi/Vasuban ... en%202.pdf (page 678).

In any case, when I googled the phrase I found Abhidharmakosa Study Materials by Korin. There, in the section that discusses that phrase, it ends with this statement:
Nothing arises from a single cause.

https://abhidharmakosa.files.wordpress. ... -karma.pdf
It’s my understanding that many Buddhists hold that view.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 6:39 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 5:47 pm that karmic stream of volitional actions has what appear to be multiple effects.
Appear is a critical word there.

Its how things appear, which is a subjective apprehension. Its a series of discrete mind-moments that appears as multiple effects (the way the rabid succession of frames appears to create motion and a deep, textured, and apparently real world on the movie screen).
Yes, I chose that word purposively.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:17 am Nothing arises from a single cause.
Correct. But a given cause can only produce a single result. A cause expires upon the production of its result. This does not mean a seed is a sufficient cause of a sprout, but it is the necessary cause. Sunlight, warmth, and moisture are also needed as conditions. But in absence of a seed, they won’t produce a sprout.

This also applies to a karma— a karma is exhausted when it produces its vipaka. But in order to produce its result, conditions necessarily come into play.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by haha »

Above response could not be an accurate answer. If he formulated the question differently, then that answer would be definitely correct. This is the answer for the following question.
Does one action project one birth or many births? Do many actions project one birth or many births?
According to the system of the School:
95a. One action projects one arising.

p 677

Vipaka (fruition/ripening) would be unpredictable (with some predictability). Someone has committed one karma, but she/he may experience its retribution many times; one may experience different effects in different realms or in same realm; it is because of different cause and conditions. “One vipaka for one karma” does not apply in this sense.

Here is an example for one karma but five hundred vipaka.

After hearing their story, the master asked the goat why it laughed and why it wept. Hereupon the animal, recalling its past deeds by its power of remembering its former existences, spoke thus to the brahmin:--"In times past, brahmin, I, like you, was a brahmin versed in the mystic texts of the Vedas, and I, to offer a Feast for the Dead, killed a goat for my offering. All through killing that single goat, I have had my head cut off five hundred times all but one. This is my five hundredth and last birth; and I laughed aloud when I thought that this very day I should be freed from my misery. On the other hand, I wept when I thought how, whilst I, who for killing a goat had been doomed to lose my head five hundred times, was to-day being freed from my misery, you, as a penalty for killing me, would be doomed to lose your head, like me, five hundred times. Thus it was out of compassion for you that I wept."

No. 18. Matakabhatta-Jātaka. From sacred-texts.com
For different conditions, vipaka will be different. Here are some references.
1. The result of ripening is that by killing out of desire you will mainly be reborn as a hungry ghost, by killing out of anger you will mostly be reborn in the hells, and by killing out of delusion you will mainly be reborn as an animal.
2. The result of the dominant action is that, dominated by the former un-virtuous action, you will have a short life span and much sickness even if you take rebirth as a human being.
3. The result corresponding to the cause is that you will take pleasure in the act of killing, due to your former habitual tendencies.

“Dakini Teachings” translated by Erik Pema Kunsang
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:38 am
clyde wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:17 am Nothing arises from a single cause.
Correct. But a given cause can only produce a single result. A cause expires upon the production of its result. This does not mean a seed is a sufficient cause of a sprout, but it is the necessary cause. Sunlight, warmth, and moisture are also needed as conditions. But in absence of a seed, they won’t produce a sprout.

This also applies to a karma— a karma is exhausted when it produces its vipaka. But in order to produce its result, conditions necessarily come into play.
It’s difficult for me to think of a volitional act that does not have multiple effects. For example, a person giving dana benefits (an effect) and so does the sangha (an effect), and the effect can continue for some time.

Can you give an example of a volitional act that has a single effect?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

haha wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:07 am
Here is an example for one karma but five hundred vipaka.
An actual deed of killing, etc., is not confined to a single moment of intention. It is rather a series of moments of intention—from anticipating it, executing the deed, and then relishing in the satisfaction of having carried it out. Each of these moments of intention is a discrete karma, each with separate force and vipaka. Thus one deed of killing, made up of many actions, can have in many results. But each result is the ripening of an individual karma, and the case above, 500 individual throwing karmas.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by haha »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:40 am
An actual deed of killing, etc., is not confined to a single moment of intention. It is rather a series of moments of intention —from anticipating it, executing the deed, and then relishing in the satisfaction of having carried it out. Each of these moments of intention is a discrete karma, each with separate force and vipaka. Thus one deed of killing, made up of many actions, can have in many results. But each result is the ripening of an individual karma, and the case above, 500 individual throwing karmas.
Now, it is clear, it is rather a series of moments of intention. Its seems that his five hundred intentions with one act of killing produced five hundred vipaka. Thanks.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

clyde wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 4:22 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:38 am
clyde wrote: Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:17 am Nothing arises from a single cause.
Correct. But a given cause can only produce a single result. A cause expires upon the production of its result. This does not mean a seed is a sufficient cause of a sprout, but it is the necessary cause. Sunlight, warmth, and moisture are also needed as conditions. But in absence of a seed, they won’t produce a sprout.

This also applies to a karma— a karma is exhausted when it produces its vipaka. But in order to produce its result, conditions necessarily come into play.
It’s difficult for me to think of a volitional act that does not have multiple effects. For example, a person giving dana benefits (an effect) and so does the sangha (an effect), and the effect can continue for some time.
There's a categorical error in seeing effects of generosity in the sangha. Those effects are projections of the viewer but not actually happening in the way speculated. The sangha itself is predominantly a mental construct. It has no actual essence and so how can any effects be observed in it? This is a fundamental point that goes back to the four noble truths - we suffer because we don't actually know what is happening. We ordinary beings have a lot of ideas about what is happening, some of them more or less functionally useful, but inevitably, they will fail to functionally correspond to reality if we hold on to them as real things and that rupture will cause suffering.

Karma is a function of the mind. Vipaka is a function of the mind. As functions of the mind, they can't transcend the mind. These are technical terms and if you understand what these terms designate, then things are clear.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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