karma and its fruit or fruits

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Malcolm
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:50 pm
Its like the stock market - your good deeds are like stock bets that can vary in merit depending on the beneficiaries of your actions. Past results do not guarantee future performance.
Nagarjuna prefers to think of karma as something like a debt which must repaid.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:43 am Yeah. That was a joke.
Well actually, some truth in it too.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 6:44 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 3:20 pm On the contrary, it seems evident that Shantideva has got it wrong. Think for yourself!
Of course! that’s the most sensible explanation.

So, thinking for yourself, tell me this:

A hungry person asks you for some money for food, and you give it to him.
Did your merit just increase or decrease?

But instead of food, he goes and buys beer and cigarettes with the money.
Did your merit just increase or decrease?

But because he was buying beer and cigarettes, he was in the right place at the right time and stops someone with a gun from robbing the store. He wouldn’t have been there if you hadn’t given him the money.
Did your merit just increase or decrease?

In arresting the suspect, the police kill him, and people riot in protest and three more people die. This all started with you giving that guy some money.
Did your merit just increase or decrease?
The teaching that Etienne Lamotte is refering to says that the merit is two fold (or actually threefold) in the sense that your deed of say building a retreat place for monks and laity creates merit in your own mindstream, in creating a future karmic result, and it also strengthenes your habitual tendency for generosity. The second aspect of merit is that when the retreat place is used and enjoyed, you will feel happiness because of this use and enjoyment by others. If the planned retreat place had never been built, but the money given by you for this purpose had been stolen, you would not get this happiness result (of an existing retreat place).
You can apply this principle to the imaginary sequence of events you have presented, if you wish. It is always complicated. It also depends on your wishes and your expressed intentions when you had contact with that person who asked for money.
Lamotte says there is some discussion in early Buddhism about the functioning and nature of merit and he refers to a book that is in french.
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Giovanni
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Giovanni »

Lamotte is not a Buddhist teacher. In order to fully understand Dharma it is necessary to have access to the living authentic source. The alternative always shows in subtle ways. It happens that some people know a lot about Buddhism, but they dont know Dharma. It shows.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Ayu »

Just added for correctness: Lamotte was no buddhist noob either. He was a schoolar. https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki ... ne_Lamotte
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:47 am The second aspect of merit is that when the retreat place is used and enjoyed, you will feel happiness because of this use and enjoyment by others.
One will certainly feel happiness, but I’m not sure what an ‘aspect of merit’ refers to. One could just as easily become attached to that happiness, even dependent on that happiness. Then that would not be meritous at all.

Strictly speaking, acquiring merit doesn’t have anything to do with generating feelings. As I understand it, the greatest merit comes without any notice of it.

I don’t think this supports the view that one’s merit depends on the experience of the receiver of what has been given.

If you start giving just so that it makes you feel good, then no matter how generous you are, you won’t get much merit from that. You’ll only develop more attachment.

However, rejoicing in others happiness also brings merit. Perhaps this is what Lamotte is referring to.
If you make a gift of something, and the receiver is enjoying it, and you are glad, for their sake, that they are happy and benefitting, rather than that brings merit. But this is because of your attitude towards their experience. It’s not because of their experience itself.

But again, this is based on non-attachment.
It’s like, if you give a toy car to a child, and they are happy playing with it, if seeing their happiness makes you happy, there’s merit in that. But if you think, “I’m happy that I gave them that toy, because look at how happy they are” then that’s about “me” and not about happiness experienced by the child. In a sense, it’s merely using their happiness as fuel to produce happiness in yourself.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 8:47 am The teaching that Etienne Lamotte is refering to says that the merit is two fold (or actually threefold) in the sense that your deed of say building a retreat place for monks and laity creates merit in your own mindstream, in creating a future karmic result, and it also strengthenes your habitual tendency for generosity. The second aspect of merit is that when the retreat place is used and enjoyed, you will feel happiness because of this use and enjoyment by others. If the planned retreat place had never been built, but the money given by you for this purpose had been stolen, you would not get this happiness result (of an existing retreat place).
You can apply this principle to the imaginary sequence of events you have presented, if you wish. It is always complicated. It also depends on your wishes and your expressed intentions when you had contact with that person who asked for money.
Lamotte says there is some discussion in early Buddhism about the functioning and nature of merit and he refers to a book that is in french.
This is consistent with the moment to moment mind. It is not consistent with the idea that merit is determined at the moment of giving.

If the correct mind is not present, and there is attachment in the giving, then it could also lead to unwholesome minds. For instance, one generously donates a building for the use of the sangha. Sure, there is joy in seeing the sangha use the building. Then anti-Buddhist tirthikas tear the building down causing one to be upset. All that merit is now effaced and in the place of joy is anger.

This is why the moment to moment cultivation of the mind is critical, and to instead proclaim in a blanket manner, "giving to bodhisattvas is more meritorious than giving to sramanas" glosses things to the point that it could lead to wrong views.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:09 am Nagarjuna prefers to think of karma as something like a debt which must repaid.
I was joking about the characterization of merit as determined by the concatenating effects of the act of giving dependent on the actions of others.

As I understand, it is critical to view karma, good, bad and neutral, as something to be worked off. At least in gradual paths. As I understand, activity on the path, however, has the effect of bringing about the end of karma - the practice paralleling the Madhyamaka analysis which ultimately neutralizes itself.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Aemilius
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Giovanni wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 9:03 am Lamotte is not a Buddhist teacher. In order to fully understand Dharma it is necessary to have access to the living authentic source. The alternative always shows in subtle ways. It happens that some people know a lot about Buddhism, but they dont know Dharma. It shows.
Some 12 years ago, a quite well known monk recommended that I should read the works of Etienne Lamotte. Which I did eventually.
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Aemilius
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

Queequeg wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:17 pm
Aemilius wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 8:50 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 6:21 pm
Yes, that’s true.
But I don’t understand the point you are making.

Are you saying that it’s better to give money to a stranger on the street than it is to a dharma center or charity that you know is helping people, because of the possibility that the stranger on the street might really be some emanation of a celestial Bodhisattva, or a monk in disguise or something like that?

In any case, it’s one’s motivation in giving that determines merit. If I give a dollar with either positive or negative attachment to the stranger on the street (who is really Padmasambhava), but give 10¢ to the Dharma center without thinking twice about it, the giving to the dharma center will accrue more merit.
It is not really so, in many places in the sutras, for example the Sutra in 42 Sections, different fields of merit (punya-kshetra) are described. This means that the person or being to whom you give, really does affect your merit. The same teaching, that is in the 42 Sections sutra, is found in Sarvastivada and Theravada traditions, although with significant differences. Vasubandhu also discusses this teaching in AKB.
There are Jatakas and Avadanas where Indra appears in the guise of a beggar, asking fo alms.

"Section 11, The Increase in Merit Gained by Bestowing Food

"The Buddha said, "Giving food to a hundred bad people is not as good as giving food to a single good person. Giving food to a thousand good people is not as good as giving food to one person who holds the Five Precepts. Giving food to ten thousand people who hold the Five Precepts is not as good as giving food to a single Srotaapanna. Giving food to a million Srotaapannas is not as good as giving food to a single Sakridagamin. Giving food to ten million Sakridagamins is not as good as giving food to a single Anagamin. Giving food to a hundred million Anagamins is not as good as giving food to a single Arhat. Giving food to one billion Arhats is not as good as giving food to a single Pratyekabuddha. Giving food to ten billion Pratyekabuddhas is not as good as giving food to a Buddha of the three periods of time. Giving food to a hundred billion Buddhas of the three periods of time is not as good as giving food to a single person who is without thoughts, without dwelling, without cultivation, and without accomplishment."

from Sutra in Forty-Two Sections
Translated by the Buddhist Text Translation Society
http://www.cttbusa.org/42s/42sections.asp.html
This still does not have to do with the receiver, at least not in a way that you seem to be insisting. For merit to depend on the receiver, there would need to be some metaphysical substrate where good and evil deeds are recorded, where the repercussions for the receiver somehow reflect back to the giver. There is no basis for this in Buddhist teachings. What we do have is the mind streams of beings which at once expresses as thoughts, words and actions and which is in turn conditioned by those thoughts, words and deeds.

In the section immediately before that:

"The Buddha said, when you see someone who is practicing giving, aid him joyfully, and you will obtain vast and great blessings. "

A Shramana asked, is there an end to those blessings? "

The Buddha said, consider the flame of a single torch. Though hundreds and thousands of people come to light their own torches from it so that they can cook their food and ward off darkness, the first torch remains the same. Blessings, too, are like this. "

The point here is the mind of joy.

When we give to an arhat as opposed to an ordinary beggar, we not only practicing non-attachment, but we are mindful of the status of that person as accomplished in the Dharma; we are conditioning our mind to be positively disposed toward Dharma. Moreover, we are drawing near that person with a seeking mind and we are open to their influence, we are receptive to the impression of their thoughts, words and deeds which condition our mindstream in a beneficial way.

Respectfully, thinking about this process of giving with some notion of a metaphysical substrate is a detrimental concept that is adharmic and the not meritorious toward liberation, even if it is well intentioned. As Malcolm pointed out, such thoughts are not right view of the path. They might lead to higher births within samsara but they do not lead to liberation.
There is a substrate where the karmic deeds are stored, it is called Alaya-vijñana or the vijñana-skandha in the system of the five skandhas. According to Vasubandhu, alaya is not a new consciousness that would be separate from the vijñana-skandha. If there were not this substrate, the bodhisattva-career lasting for three asamkheya/limitless kalpas would be meaningless. But because there is the accumulation of positive deeds and the accumulation of wisdom, during many lives and many kalpas, therefore there are the paths of Sravakas, Pratyeka-buddhas and Buddhas, and all the other paths (e.g. devas, mankind and animals).

The enjoyment of the gift by Buddha and bhikshus as part of the mechanism of merit is mentioned at least in the Sarvastivada Vinaya. This is in the context of building a monastery(vihara) for Buddha and the monks to stay in. There is a story of layman who is eager to attain merit and who arranges the construction of a vihara with great haste. The constructed vihara turns out to be less than perfect. Buddha feels some compassion for the guy and in order that he would attain at least little merit, he decides to stay one night in this vihara built for him. It is made clear that the man's merit depends on the use and enjoyment of the vihara by Buddha and his disciples.

Maybe there are merit particles and wisdom particles in the subtle universe, or in the universe of mind.

The building of Viharas is mentioned in Vinaya Vibhanga, Derge 'dulba. In the article "On Monks and Menial Laborers; Some Monastic Accounts of Building Buddhist Monasteries", Gregory Schopen.
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:10 am The enjoyment of the gift by Buddha and bhikshus as part of the mechanism of merit is mentioned at least in the Sarvastivada Vinaya. This is in the context of building a monastery(vihara) for Buddha and the monks to stay in. There is a story of layman who is eager to attain merit and who arranges the construction of a vihara with great haste. The constructed vihara turns out to be less than perfect. Buddha feels some compassion for the guy and in order that he would attain at least little merit, he decides to stay one night in this vihara built for him. It is made clear that the man's merit depends on the use and enjoyment of the vihara by Buddha and his disciples.
That’s very interesting. Can you refer me to that sutra? I would like to see if that is ‘made clear’ to me or not.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:10 am There is a substrate where the karmic deeds are stored, it is called Alaya-vijñana or the vijñana-skandha in the system of the five skandhas. According to Vasubandhu, alaya is not a new consciousness that would be separate from the vijñana-skandha. If there were not this substrate, the bodhisattva-career lasting for three asamkheya/limitless kalpas would be meaningless. But because there is the accumulation of positive deeds and the accumulation of wisdom, during many lives and many kalpas, therefore there are the paths of Sravakas, Pratyeka-buddhas and Buddhas, and all the other paths (e.g. devas, mankind and animals).

The enjoyment of the gift by Buddha and bhikshus as part of the mechanism of merit is mentioned at least in the Sarvastivada Vinaya. This is in the context of building a monastery(vihara) for Buddha and the monks to stay in. There is a story of layman who is eager to attain merit and who arranges the construction of a vihara with great haste. The constructed vihara turns out to be less than perfect. Buddha feels some compassion for the guy and in order that he would attain at least little merit, he decides to stay one night in this vihara built for him. It is made clear that the man's merit depends on the use and enjoyment of the vihara by Buddha and his disciples.

Maybe there are merit particles and wisdom particles in the subtle universe, or in the universe of mind.

The building of Viharas is mentioned in Vinaya Vibhanga, Derge 'dulba. In the article "On Monks and Menial Laborers; Some Monastic Accounts of Building Buddhist Monasteries", Gregory Schopen.
No, the metaphysical substrate I was referring to is the idea that there is some sort of karma bank in the sky where everyone's deposits are tracked and appreciate and depreciate depending on the outcomes of actions.

Actions are imprinted in the alaya vijnana thought moment to thought moment. They don't directly depend on the concatenating effects of actions on the material environment and sentient beings. Of course, we have moment to moment impressions of these external factors through the sense doors, but again, this is the functioning of the mind moment to moment.

The merit of the layman depended on the Buddha's use because he was able to see that the Buddha approved of his gift, bringing him joy. This is similar to discussion the Buddha had with Ananda about Chunda who should not be made to feel bad about having served the meal that poisoned the Buddha.

This idea of merit particles floating around is totally unfounded.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Queequeg wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:25 pm
This idea of merit particles floating around is totally unfounded.
We need Buddhists working at CERN.

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Malcolm
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 2:25 pm
No, the metaphysical substrate I was referring to is the idea that there is some sort of karma bank in the sky where everyone's deposits are tracked and appreciate and depreciate depending on the outcomes of actions.
You mean the Akashic Record...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Edit: Nevermind.
Last edited by Virgo on Sun May 08, 2022 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

The layman who built the vihara would have (potentially) accrued merit whether the Buddha had spent the night there or not, because of, and depending on his intentions and motivation.
Buddha’s staying there increased the layman’s merit because this action thus helped the layman to facilitate the continued spreading of the Dharma (as it would by giving any monk a place to stay).
It wasn’t because the Buddha got some enjoyment out of it, or even because he stayed there.
You could say it was something the buddha gave to the layperson, to help him gain merit.
He could just as well have loaned him a hammer to build with.

This is the same as giving money to a worthy Dharma canter or temple.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Virgo »

Aemilius wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:10 am
Maybe there are merit particles and wisdom particles in the subtle universe, or in the universe of mind.
Yes, for some people it might be helpful to visualize them this way. I like that idea.

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 10:10 am
The enjoyment of the gift by Buddha and bhikshus as part of the mechanism of merit is mentioned at least in the Sarvastivada Vinaya. This is in the context of building a monastery(vihara) for Buddha and the monks to stay in. There is a story of layman who is eager to attain merit and who arranges the construction of a vihara with great haste. The constructed vihara turns out to be less than perfect. Buddha feels some compassion for the guy and in order that he would attain at least little merit, he decides to stay one night in this vihara built for him. It is made clear that the man's merit depends on the use and enjoyment of the vihara by Buddha and his disciples.
Yes, and as we have seen there are many accounts that show that giving to an Arhat is far better than to an ordinary person, and so on.

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Natan »

Observation: There are so many different ideas about karma going on here it's as if Buddha gave no explanations about how karma works. Oh guess what? He really didn't, why? It's a general idea. The idea of dedication of merit apparently happened while Buddha was alive, dedication to ghosts was the common practice. In Mahayana Bodhicitta and dedication of merit are essential ingredients, but the explanation how it works is not one. Gampopa describes it as like gathering clouds before it rains. Karma and interdependence are general not specific, unless you want to go with Vasubandhu, which some here rely on. I don't, because it's one guy's opinion. The proof of this is Dzogchen. There are no repetitive activities to perform. In fact, that would be an obstacle. All the stages of a sadhana are done in a moment of recognition. There's nothing at all to think about with regard to karma other than what does or does not hinder that.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pmKarma and interdependence are general not specific, unless you want to go with Vasubandhu, which some here rely on. I don't, because it's one guy's opinion.
The Abhidharmakośabhaṣya is not just one guy's opinion. It Is a compilation of many different opinions by one guy—mainly those of the Kashmiri Sarvāstivādins and the Sautrantikas. In many, many, places the opinion Vasubandhu actually supports is ambiguous at best.

For example, in chapter 4, karma, Vasubandhu frequently cites the Buddha directly, and then discusses how these citations are understood in different schools. It is not as simplistic as you make out.

Dzogchen teachings offer no novel reinterpretation of karma.
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