karma and its fruit or fruits

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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pm Observation: There are so many different ideas about karma going on here it's as if Buddha gave no explanations about how karma works. Oh guess what? He really didn't, why? It's a general idea.
He kind of did. Karma is action. 4NT, 12 Linked Chain describe how it arises and how it plays out. He did say that no one but a Buddha can clearly see the outcome of karma, but that's different than explaining in general how it works. Of course, IRL, our minds are complex and unpredictable, and there are so many beings creating karma, so many vectors, so to speak, that trying to predict how things will turn out is like trying to pick a spot in the ocean and predict the wave patterns at a particular moment.

Basically, as we've discussed in this thread, its primarily a function of the mind.

When we venerate and dedicate merit, we're seasoning our mind with certain beneficial dispositions. Similarly, if we compulsively lie, we're seasoning and habituating our mind to not value truth. Its pretty straight forward.

It only gets impenetrable when we start chalking things up to woo.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pm Observation: There are so many different ideas about karma going on here it's as if Buddha gave no explanations about how karma works. Oh guess what? He really didn't, why? It's a general idea.
He kind of did. Karma is action. 4NT, 12 Linked Chain describe how it arises and how it plays out. He did say that no one but a Buddha can clearly see the outcome of karma, but that's different than explaining in general how it works. Of course, IRL, there are so many beings creating karma, so many vectors, so to speak, that trying to predict how things will turn out is like trying to pick a spot in the ocean and predict the wave patterns at a particular moment.

Basically, as we've discussed in this thread, its primarily a function of the mind.

When we venerate and dedicate merit, we're seasoning our mind with certain beneficial dispositions. Similarly, if we compulsively lie, we're seasoning and habituating our mind to not value truth. Its pretty straight forward.

It only gets impenetrable when we start valuing woo.
Merit and karma are two different things, although they are related. Merit accumulates but it doesn’t “ripen”.
Because of one’s karma, one can have the opportunity to accumulate merit. But accumulating merit doesn’t cause the opportunity to produce karma. Generating karma occurs with or without accumulating merit.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:04 pm
Merit and karma are two different things, although they are related. Merit accumulates but it doesn’t “ripen”.
Yes, actually it does. It ripens as birth in higher realms, longevity, absence of illness, and so on.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:04 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pm Observation: There are so many different ideas about karma going on here it's as if Buddha gave no explanations about how karma works. Oh guess what? He really didn't, why? It's a general idea.
He kind of did. Karma is action. 4NT, 12 Linked Chain describe how it arises and how it plays out. He did say that no one but a Buddha can clearly see the outcome of karma, but that's different than explaining in general how it works. Of course, IRL, there are so many beings creating karma, so many vectors, so to speak, that trying to predict how things will turn out is like trying to pick a spot in the ocean and predict the wave patterns at a particular moment.

Basically, as we've discussed in this thread, its primarily a function of the mind.

When we venerate and dedicate merit, we're seasoning our mind with certain beneficial dispositions. Similarly, if we compulsively lie, we're seasoning and habituating our mind to not value truth. Its pretty straight forward.

It only gets impenetrable when we start valuing woo.
Merit and karma are two different things, although they are related. Merit accumulates but it doesn’t “ripen”.
Because of one’s karma, one can have the opportunity to accumulate merit. But accumulating merit doesn’t cause the opportunity to produce karma. Generating karma occurs with or without accumulating merit.
I may be wrong but as I understand, what we call merit is merely a latent effect that expresses as a manifest effect when the appropriate circumstances arise. Demerit can also remain latent until the circumstances arise for its expression. Positive and negative are labels we apply for pleasurable and painful states of mind, respectively.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:20 pm
I may be wrong but as I understand, what we call merit is merely a latent effect that expresses as a manifest effect when the appropriate circumstances arise. Demerit can also remain latent until the circumstances arise for its expression. Positive and negative are labels we apply for pleasurable and painful states of mind, respectively.
Is merit not just positive karma?

Virgo
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

Have you heard about this: THE WORLD GIVING INDEX?
"CAF has been producing its World Giving Index for more than a decade. The first CAF World Giving Index was published in the wake of the global financial crisis, and now this long running study has given us the opportunity to look at how a new global crisis – the Covid-19 pandemic – has impacted giving around the world."
It is quite interesting https://www.cafonline.org/about-us/publ ... index-2021
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

Virgo wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:23 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:20 pm
I may be wrong but as I understand, what we call merit is merely a latent effect that expresses as a manifest effect when the appropriate circumstances arise. Demerit can also remain latent until the circumstances arise for its expression. Positive and negative are labels we apply for pleasurable and painful states of mind, respectively.
Is merit not just positive karma?

Virgo
Yes. More succinct. Its not some "good vibes" rebounding around the world, is my point.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Natan »

Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pm Observation: There are so many different ideas about karma going on here it's as if Buddha gave no explanations about how karma works. Oh guess what? He really didn't, why? It's a general idea.
He kind of did. Karma is action. 4NT, 12 Linked Chain describe how it arises and how it plays out. He did say that no one but a Buddha can clearly see the outcome of karma, but that's different than explaining in general how it works. Of course, IRL, our minds are complex and unpredictable, and there are so many beings creating karma, so many vectors, so to speak, that trying to predict how things will turn out is like trying to pick a spot in the ocean and predict the wave patterns at a particular moment.

Basically, as we've discussed in this thread, its primarily a function of the mind.

When we venerate and dedicate merit, we're seasoning our mind with certain beneficial dispositions. Similarly, if we compulsively lie, we're seasoning and habituating our mind to not value truth. Its pretty straight forward.

It only gets impenetrable when we start chalking things up to woo.
I believe Buddha explained it boils down to habit.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:03 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 4:58 pmKarma and interdependence are general not specific, unless you want to go with Vasubandhu, which some here rely on. I don't, because it's one guy's opinion.
The Abhidharmakośabhaṣya is not just one guy's opinion. It Is a compilation of many different opinions by one guy—mainly those of the Kashmiri Sarvāstivādins and the Sautrantikas. In many, many, places the opinion Vasubandhu actually supports is ambiguous at best.

For example, in chapter 4, karma, Vasubandhu frequently cites the Buddha directly, and then discusses how these citations are understood in different schools. It is not as simplistic as you make out.

Dzogchen teachings offer no novel reinterpretation of karma.
It doesn't say anywhere in Mahayana sutras that all six perfections, Bodhicitta, three roots, three wisdoms, etc., are one in the nature of mind. That's a Vajrayana point, and as such Abhidharma in fact.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:54 pm It doesn't say anywhere in Mahayana sutras that all six perfections, Bodhicitta, three roots, three wisdoms, etc., are one in the nature of mind.
Sure it does.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Virgo »

Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:36 pm Its not some "good vibes" rebounding around the world, is my point.
Good point.

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 6:40 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:54 pm It doesn't say anywhere in Mahayana sutras that all six perfections, Bodhicitta, three roots, three wisdoms, etc., are one in the nature of mind.
Sure it does.
There are no three roots and three Primordial wisdoms in sutra. Let's keep it real.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Malcolm »

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:15 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 1:04 pm
Merit and karma are two different things, although they are related. Merit accumulates but it doesn’t “ripen”.
Yes, actually it does. It ripens as birth in higher realms, longevity, absence of illness, and so on.
I suppose that is true.
But is that ripening… or fermentation?
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 4:36 pm
Virgo wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 3:23 pm
Queequeg wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 2:20 pm
I may be wrong but as I understand, what we call merit is merely a latent effect that expresses as a manifest effect when the appropriate circumstances arise. Demerit can also remain latent until the circumstances arise for its expression. Positive and negative are labels we apply for pleasurable and painful states of mind, respectively.
Is merit not just positive karma?

Virgo
Yes. More succinct. Its not some "good vibes" rebounding around the world, is my point.
"The main concept of the field of merit is that good deeds done towards some recipients accrue more merit than good deeds to other recipients. This is compared with a seed planted in fertile ground, which reaps more and better fruits than in infertile ground."
in Salguero, C. Pierce , "Fields of Merit, Harvests of Health: Some Notes on the Role of Medical Karma in the Popularization of Buddhism in Early Medieval China", Asian Philosophy, 23 (4): 341–349,

Merit ledgers and merit-books (puṇyapustaka)

"In China, it was common for many centuries to keep record of someone's meritorious deeds in 'merit ledgers' (pinyin: gōngguò gé). Although a belief in merit and retribution had preceded the merit ledgers by many centuries, during the Ming dynasty, through the ledgers a practice of systematic merit accumulation was established for the first time. The merit ledgers were lists of good deeds and bad deeds, organized in the form of a calendar for users to calculate to what extent they had been practicing good deeds and avoiding bad deeds every day. The ledgers also listed the exact retributions of every number of deeds done, to the detail. Through these ledgers it was believed someone could offset bad karma. In the fourth century CE, the Baopuzi, and in the twelfth century the Treatise On the Response of the Tao and the Ledger of Merit and Demerit of the Taiwei Immortal introduced the basics of the system of merit ledgers. In the fourteenth century CE, the Tao master Zhao Yizhen recommended the use of the ledgers to examine oneself, to bring emotion in harmony with reason. From the fourth to the sixteenth centuries, many types of ledgers were produced by Buddhist and Tao schools, and the usage of the ledgers grew widespread. The practice of recording merits has survived in China and Japan until the present day. In Theravāda countries, for example in Burma and Sri Lanka, similar customs have been observed. In Sri Lanka, a 'book of merit' (Pali: puñña-potthaka, Sanskrit: puṇyapustaka) was sometimes kept by someone for years and read in the last moments of life. This practice was based on the story of King Duṭṭhagāmaṇi, and was mostly practiced by the royalty and rich during the period of the Mahāvaṁsa chronicle. More recent practice has also been observed, for example, as a form of terminal care, or as part of the activities of lay merit-making associations." wikipedia
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:30 am "The main concept of the field of merit is that good deeds done towards some recipients accrue more merit than good deeds to other recipients. This is compared with a seed planted in fertile ground, which reaps more and better fruits than in infertile ground."
in Salguero, C. Pierce , "Fields of Merit, Harvests of Health: Some Notes on the Role of Medical Karma in the Popularization of Buddhism in Early Medieval China", Asian Philosophy, 23 (4): 341–349,

Merit ledgers and merit-books (puṇyapustaka)
Conventionally, sure. But if we carefully consider actual Buddhist teachings, this sort of "good vibes, man" karma is wrong view.
"In China, it was common for many centuries to keep record of someone's meritorious deeds in 'merit ledgers' (pinyin: gōngguò gé). Although a belief in merit and retribution had preceded the merit ledgers by many centuries, during the Ming dynasty, through the ledgers a practice of systematic merit accumulation was established for the first time. The merit ledgers were lists of good deeds and bad deeds, organized in the form of a calendar for users to calculate to what extent they had been practicing good deeds and avoiding bad deeds every day. The ledgers also listed the exact retributions of every number of deeds done, to the detail. Through these ledgers it was believed someone could offset bad karma. In the fourth century CE, the Baopuzi, and in the twelfth century the Treatise On the Response of the Tao and the Ledger of Merit and Demerit of the Taiwei Immortal introduced the basics of the system of merit ledgers. In the fourteenth century CE, the Tao master Zhao Yizhen recommended the use of the ledgers to examine oneself, to bring emotion in harmony with reason. From the fourth to the sixteenth centuries, many types of ledgers were produced by Buddhist and Tao schools, and the usage of the ledgers grew widespread. The practice of recording merits has survived in China and Japan until the present day. In Theravāda countries, for example in Burma and Sri Lanka, similar customs have been observed. In Sri Lanka, a 'book of merit' (Pali: puñña-potthaka, Sanskrit: puṇyapustaka) was sometimes kept by someone for years and read in the last moments of life. This practice was based on the story of King Duṭṭhagāmaṇi, and was mostly practiced by the royalty and rich during the period of the Mahāvaṁsa chronicle. More recent practice has also been observed, for example, as a form of terminal care, or as part of the activities of lay merit-making associations." wikipedia
Sounds obsessive compulsive. And tiring.

There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:30 am
"The main concept of the field of merit is that good deeds done towards some recipients accrue more merit than good deeds to other recipients. This is compared with a seed planted in fertile ground, which reaps more and better fruits than in infertile ground."
This is what I was saying before. And it has nothing to do with the needs of the receiver (the recipient of one’s generosity) or the experience of the receiver.
So, even though the needy person on the street might think “I need that dollar more than the buddhist temple down the street does” (and indeed, they probably do) the question of who needs the dollar more has nothing to do with the giver’s gaining of merit.
For example, if the giver hands the needy person $10 and then thinks “I am such a generous person! I’m really a good Buddhist!” And then they drop 25¢ Into the donation box at the temple and make the sincere aspiration, “may this benefit all beings” there will be more merit gained from giving the 25¢. This is because of the attitude or motivation connected with the giving, and had nothing to do with the amount given or the experience of the recipient.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:17 am https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfz0tDQZhqs
Funny skit I've seen a lot. Also not a punchline here.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:56 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:30 am
"The main concept of the field of merit is that good deeds done towards some recipients accrue more merit than good deeds to other recipients. This is compared with a seed planted in fertile ground, which reaps more and better fruits than in infertile ground."
This is what I was saying before. And it has nothing to do with the needs of the receiver (the recipient of one’s generosity) or the experience of the receiver.
I will amend that. It has little to do with the needs and experiences of the recipient. In other words, the needs and experiences of the recipient have very little to to with how much merit is gained by the giver.
Obviously, helping the poor is a good way to develop merit. But this is because the giving is connected with developing compassion. It would be a mistake to think that there is no connection whatsoever. But gaining merit is the developing of enlightened qualities. It’s not like you get enough merit and you can cash it in for some wisdom or a flash of insight.
Merit isn’t some kind of Buddhist bitcoin.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Aemilius »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 2:56 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 8:30 am
"The main concept of the field of merit is that good deeds done towards some recipients accrue more merit than good deeds to other recipients. This is compared with a seed planted in fertile ground, which reaps more and better fruits than in infertile ground."
This is what I was saying before. And it has nothing to do with the needs of the receiver (the recipient of one’s generosity) or the experience of the receiver.
So, even though the needy person on the street might think “I need that dollar more than the buddhist temple down the street does” (and indeed, they probably do) the question of who needs the dollar more has nothing to do with the giver’s gaining of merit.
For example, if the giver hands the needy person $10 and then thinks “I am such a generous person! I’m really a good Buddhist!” And then they drop 25¢ Into the donation box at the temple and make the sincere aspiration, “may this benefit all beings” there will be more merit gained from giving the 25¢. This is because of the attitude or motivation connected with the giving, and had nothing to do with the amount given or the experience of the recipient.
Planting a seed in a field has something to do with the field, in which it is planted. It grows in a field and it produces fruit (or grain etc.) in a field. Without a field it would not produce fruit.
In the Theravada tradition, if you donate a vihara no dana has occurred before the monks move in and live there. I am not a theravadin, this is what I have been intimated by a modern expert(well known monk) of this tradition.

Your attitude to giving is harmful and nihilistic. I sincerly suggest that you let go of it, bury it in the ground.

The error in your thinking is also that you consider you to be "here", and that the other is "there", outside of you. You are the 18 dhatus, and 12 ayatanas, all of them. Your personal existence is limetless, it is without limits. You are also "there", in the objects of your perception. If you donate a hospital, the hospital is part of you, it is an element of you.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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