karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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The old question about merit is: Does it matter if the recipient of one's generosity does not actually get one's gift? Due to some circumstance that is, or seems to be, beyond one's control. Like for example a sudden earthquake or a traffic accident, that destroys the actual gift or its giving. I.e. is the intention really enough to create the positive karmic consequence or not ?

Etienne Lamotte has in his History of Indian Buddhism answered this question: According to tradition the merit of a gift is twofold, 1. there is the actual intention, the disposition it creates in one's mental continuum, and its future karmic reward. And 2. there is the aspect of the enjoyment of the gift by its recipient. This event creates happiness also in the giver. If the gift is not received nor enjoyed this happines is not created. Thus it does matter whether the gift is received or not.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:51 am The old question about merit is: Does it matter if the recipient of one's generosity does not actually get one's gift? Due to some circumstance that is, or seems to be, beyond one's control. Like for example a sudden earthquake or a traffic accident, that destroys the actual gift or its giving. I.e. is the intention really enough to create the positive karmic consequence or not ?

Etienne Lamotte has in his History of Indian Buddhism answered this question: According to tradition the merit of a gift is twofold, 1. there is the actual intention, the disposition it creates in one's mental continuum, and its future karmic reward. And 2. there is the aspect of the enjoyment of the gift by its recipient. This event creates happiness also in the giver. If the gift is not received nor enjoyed this happines is not created. Thus it does matter whether the gift is received or not.
It is “twofold” because one is piggybacking on the other.
The potential to gain merit is there whether the gift is received or not.
The potential for more benefit to arise as the result of the gift being received is a bonus. It’s extra icing on the cake.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Perhaps its worth unpacking the process by which dana can benefit others.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Queequeg wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:48 pm Perhaps its worth unpacking the process by which dana can benefit others.
The texts mention three types of giving:
Giving objects
Giving protection
Giving Dharma

These can be expanded on in many ways. For example, giving food and shelter to travelers. I know a Buddhist group who used to give out free coffee and donuts from a food truck on a highway rest stop on busy holiday weekends.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Virgo »

muni wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 4:39 pm Without any duality of perceiver and per­ceived, there is no way a normal thought can survive; it vanishes. And so no concepts/labeling.
This deserves some further elucidation but that is for a different forum.

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:51 am The old question about merit is: Does it matter if the recipient of one's generosity does not actually get one's gift? Due to some circumstance that is, or seems to be, beyond one's control. Like for example a sudden earthquake or a traffic accident, that destroys the actual gift or its giving. I.e. is the intention really enough to create the positive karmic consequence or not ?

Etienne Lamotte has in his History of Indian Buddhism answered this question: According to tradition the merit of a gift is twofold, 1. there is the actual intention, the disposition it creates in one's mental continuum, and its future karmic reward. And 2. there is the aspect of the enjoyment of the gift by its recipient. This event creates happiness also in the giver. If the gift is not received nor enjoyed this happines is not created. Thus it does matter whether the gift is received or not.
It is “twofold” because one is piggybacking on the other.
The potential to gain merit is there whether the gift is received or not.
The potential for more benefit to arise as the result of the gift being received is a bonus. It’s extra icing on the cake.
If you happened to be the potential & needful receiver, you would quite certainly think otherwise.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:22 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:51 am The old question about merit is: Does it matter if the recipient of one's generosity does not actually get one's gift? Due to some circumstance that is, or seems to be, beyond one's control. Like for example a sudden earthquake or a traffic accident, that destroys the actual gift or its giving. I.e. is the intention really enough to create the positive karmic consequence or not ?

Etienne Lamotte has in his History of Indian Buddhism answered this question: According to tradition the merit of a gift is twofold, 1. there is the actual intention, the disposition it creates in one's mental continuum, and its future karmic reward. And 2. there is the aspect of the enjoyment of the gift by its recipient. This event creates happiness also in the giver. If the gift is not received nor enjoyed this happines is not created. Thus it does matter whether the gift is received or not.
It is “twofold” because one is piggybacking on the other.
The potential to gain merit is there whether the gift is received or not.
The potential for more benefit to arise as the result of the gift being received is a bonus. It’s extra icing on the cake.
If you happened to be the potential & needful receiver, you would quite certainly think otherwise.
conventional, samsara view. not not valid. but in terms of perfection, not essential.

let's say for instance... i'm a heroin dealer and you are a junkie suffering withdrawals. i could hook you up and relieve your stress, but we're both hopelessly drowning in samsara. there's no merit here, just perpetuation of causes and conditions that result in suffering. i suppose that if a cold hearted dealer has a moment of compassion and gives a dose to relieve the junkie's suffering with no monetary gain, and the junkie uses the window of relief to turn their mind to meritorious thoughts, then there might be some benefit. but likely to be effaced by what both do next. drug dealers don't make it if they give away product and will likely enter desperate states that drive harmful behavior, and once the junk is metabolized the junkie will likewise turn to desperation and harmful behavior. round and round, circling the drain to the evil births.
Last edited by Queequeg on Tue May 03, 2022 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:22 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:40 pm
Aemilius wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 9:51 am The old question about merit is: Does it matter if the recipient of one's generosity does not actually get one's gift? Due to some circumstance that is, or seems to be, beyond one's control. Like for example a sudden earthquake or a traffic accident, that destroys the actual gift or its giving. I.e. is the intention really enough to create the positive karmic consequence or not ?

Etienne Lamotte has in his History of Indian Buddhism answered this question: According to tradition the merit of a gift is twofold, 1. there is the actual intention, the disposition it creates in one's mental continuum, and its future karmic reward. And 2. there is the aspect of the enjoyment of the gift by its recipient. This event creates happiness also in the giver. If the gift is not received nor enjoyed this happines is not created. Thus it does matter whether the gift is received or not.
It is “twofold” because one is piggybacking on the other.
The potential to gain merit is there whether the gift is received or not.
The potential for more benefit to arise as the result of the gift being received is a bonus. It’s extra icing on the cake.
If you happened to be the potential & needful receiver, you would quite certainly think otherwise.
Why would you quite certainly think otherwise?

I get your point. If you are hungry and need a dollar for food and you see someone put money in a temple donation box you’re gonna think “hey I need it more than they do” but that’s not the point here. It has nothing to do with merit.

Sure, of course they would prefer a donation would be given to them. And one would certainly gain merit by helping them. But, for example, if I give a dollar to one hungry person, one hungry person will eat. If I give a dollar to someone who is feeding 100 hungry people, that dollar will help feed 100 people. So, because the residual of ripple effect of feeding 100 people is greater, the merit will be greater.

However, the merit from Dana accrues from the action of giving, not from the action of someone receiving. And ultimately how many people benefit is of little consequence.

What actually creates “merit” (which I think is a really stupid term) is one’s intention. More merit is gained by giving freely, without any attachment, without either feeling resentment (“now I have less money for myself”) or boastfulness (“look at how generous I am!”).
The practice of generosity, by itself, doesn’t create merit. But it creates the opportunity to acquire merit.

Ultimately, to practice generosity automatically, without giving a second thought to giver, received, or object given, produces the greatest merit because there is no attachment to “me” and the whole point of practicing generosity isn’t to do “good deeds” but is to cut through attachment to “me” so that one can eventually attain the full realization of a Buddha. Generosity is a very powerful (perhaps the most powerful) practice because giving is the direct opposite of taking.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:04 pm Ultimately, to practice generosity automatically, without giving a second thought to giver, received, or object given, produces the greatest merit because there is no attachment to “me” and the whole point of practicing generosity isn’t to do “good deeds” but is to cut through attachment to “me” so that one can eventually attain the full realization of a Buddha. Generosity is a very powerful (perhaps the most powerful) practice because giving is the direct opposite of taking.
Indeed. Consider the Buddha's last or next to last life as a bodhisattva (depending on the tradition). He was a king who gave away anything anyone asked for. He gave away the basis of his kingdom's prosperity and the society fell into poverty. After being exiled with his wife and children, he gave away his wife and children. He was the only one who felt like he was being pure. Everyone else was suffering.

If giving depended on its effects, then he would have become a buddha after one of his lives as a wise and judicious king, not Brewster.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:04 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:22 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:40 pm
It is “twofold” because one is piggybacking on the other.
The potential to gain merit is there whether the gift is received or not.
The potential for more benefit to arise as the result of the gift being received is a bonus. It’s extra icing on the cake.
If you happened to be the potential & needful receiver, you would quite certainly think otherwise.
Why would you quite certainly think otherwise?

I get your point. If you are hungry and need a dollar for food and you see someone put money in a temple donation box you’re gonna think “hey I need it more than they do” but that’s not the point here. It has nothing to do with merit.

Sure, of course they would prefer a donation would be given to them. And one would certainly gain merit by helping them. But, for example, if I give a dollar to one hungry person, one hungry person will eat. If I give a dollar to someone who is feeding 100 hungry people, that dollar will help feed 100 people. So, because the residual of ripple effect of feeding 100 people is greater, the merit will be greater.

However, the merit from Dana accrues from the action of giving, not from the action of someone receiving. And ultimately how many people benefit is of little consequence.

What actually creates “merit” (which I think is a really stupid term) is one’s intention. More merit is gained by giving freely, without any attachment, without either feeling resentment (“now I have less money for myself”) or boastfulness (“look at how generous I am!”).
The practice of generosity, by itself, doesn’t create merit. But it creates the opportunity to acquire merit.

Ultimately, to practice generosity automatically, without giving a second thought to giver, received, or object given, produces the greatest merit because there is no attachment to “me” and the whole point of practicing generosity isn’t to do “good deeds” but is to cut through attachment to “me” so that one can eventually attain the full realization of a Buddha. Generosity is a very powerful (perhaps the most powerful) practice because giving is the direct opposite of taking.
As is stressed in the Buddhist teaching preserved through the work of E. Lamotte, the act of receiving a thing and enjoying it, is or it can be a powerful thing. It can have large consequences. For example, some people have been given a musical instrument, and through receiving it they have sometimes changed their lives. Any thing can act as catalyst for vast changes. The giver can hardly know what is going to happen with his gift, if anything happens. The second aspect of merit stresses this fact of uncertainty and unpredictability. It also means that the later consequences of giving do matter for the giver.

Jains have heavily criticized Buddhism for neglecting the actual material actions in their emphasis on intention. Jains think that the five precepts consist in the actual physical deeds, and that the physical deeds are the primary karmic actions.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Aemilius wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 4:54 pm As is stressed in the Buddhist teaching preserved through the work of E. Lamotte, the act of receiving a thing and enjoying it, is or it can be a powerful thing. It can have large consequences. For example, some people have been given a musical instrument, and through receiving it they have sometimes changed their lives. Any thing can act as catalyst for vast changes. The giver can hardly know what is going to happen with his gift, if anything happens.
That’s fine. Thats even more why giving without attachment is important. You never know what the outcome will be. If you don’t know, you won’t be attached to it.
Otherwise there are ‘strings attached’. If you give something, it’s not yours anymore.
Nobody denies that there’s satisfaction from receiving a gift. That has nothing to do with the giver’s merit.
The second aspect of merit stresses this fact of uncertainty and unpredictability. It also means that the later consequences of giving do matter for the giver.
It does? Explain why it matters to the giver. Everything is unpredictable.
Jains have heavily criticized Buddhism for neglecting the actual material actions in their emphasis on intention. Jains think that the five precepts consist in the actual physical deeds, and that the physical deeds are the primary karmic actions.
That’s probably why they choose to be Jains and not Buddhists.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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Buddha stressed intention, but the Five Precepts are vows to refrain from certain actions.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Virgo »

Intention causes action. Therefore if you intend to do something and you carry it out then you create karma. If you accidentally do something though, for example, step on ants and kill them, then since you didn't intend to kill them, you don't create the karma of killing them.

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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 11:11 pm
Aemilius wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 4:54 pm As is stressed in the Buddhist teaching preserved through the work of E. Lamotte, the act of receiving a thing and enjoying it, is or it can be a powerful thing. It can have large consequences. For example, some people have been given a musical instrument, and through receiving it they have sometimes changed their lives. Any thing can act as catalyst for vast changes. The giver can hardly know what is going to happen with his gift, if anything happens.
That’s fine. Thats even more why giving without attachment is important. You never know what the outcome will be. If you don’t know, you won’t be attached to it.
Otherwise there are ‘strings attached’. If you give something, it’s not yours anymore.
Nobody denies that there’s satisfaction from receiving a gift. That has nothing to do with the giver’s merit.
The second aspect of merit stresses this fact of uncertainty and unpredictability. It also means that the later consequences of giving do matter for the giver.
It does? Explain why it matters to the giver. Everything is unpredictable.
It is similar to human relationships, like between parents and children, between siblings, with your spouse, etc... You know more or less automatically how they are doing. You know it unconsciously or telepathically. You don't need to be constantly informed about their present status. Your deeds of generosity are like your children. You will anyhow experience something, maybe unconsciously, that is caused by your past generosity. This continuing relationship with one's past giving is one of the reasons why in Mahayana texts, like the Perfection of Wisdom Sutras and the Mahayanasutralamkara, nonattachment to gifts and giving is stressed so much.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 am It is similar to human relationships, like between parents and children, between siblings, with your spouse, etc...
… You will anyhow experience something, maybe unconsciously, that is caused by your past generosity.
That experience is the feedback you get from others. You’re experiencing what others have been giving you. The giving and receiving in this kind of situation is mutual. So, of course, if you receive something, you get an experience from it.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with why giving to a good dharma center or a worthwhile charity provides the opportunity to gain more merit than giving to one needy person.

There’s certainly merit in giving to one needy person. But it is quickly exhausted because the residual effect or ripple effect is minimal.

If I give a poor and hungry person money for a meal, they will still be hungry again tomorrow. If I give that money to someone who is feeding poor hungry people every day, that poor and hungry individual can eat every day.

And if I give freely without any of my own mental baggage attached to it, the merit is really great because it is at least a moment free of self-grasping, which is essential for realizing liberation from samsara.

This doesn’t mean you should avoid giving to an individual needy person if the occasion arises.

Generosity is the first of the Six Perfections. and giving without any attachment to the concept of giver, receiver, or object given is the perfection of generosity.
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

clyde wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:49 am Buddha stressed intention, but the Five Precepts are vows to refrain from certain actions.
This is a good point.

I think we have to go back to the moment to moment model.

Let's take the example of a visual object making contact with a visual organ (the eye, for us desire realm beings). In that contact there is visual consciousness. This does not simultaneously give rise to mental consciousness. In fact its said that the visual consciousness must endure for a certain minimum of mind moments before it makes an impression on the mental organ. The visual consciousness is the object that makes contact with the mental organ, and in that contact there is a moment of mental consciousness. This contact endures for a series of moments and in that contact the mental consciousness is accompanied by factors - at minimum, pleasurable, painful or neutral. That moment of mental consciousness in turn becomes an object of the following moments of mental consciousness and in that more complex factors arise - recognizing the object, and various dispositions toward the object which is now an abstracted experience no longer dependent on the immediate visual consciousness.

Intention is one aspect of consciousness. If we allow that intention to flourish into movement of the body, those moments of movement are moments of experience which in turn become objects of the mental organ, and each moment, accompanied by the tactile, visual, auditory, olfactory, auditory moments of consciousness reinforce certain impressions in the mind stream, establishing habitual series of mind moments. In other words, by giving rise to action we reinforce intentions in a manner that is much more forceful than if the intention is a mere passing idea that dissipates if left to dissolve; if it is not fed with further mental moments.

The process I describe above applies to, for instance, the practice of dana. For the giver, the practice of dana starts with an intention of relinquishing attachment. Its immediate cause may be the appearance of another being in need, a perception that itself is a complex of habitual intentions and actions founded on impressions in the mind involving experiences of personal suffering, interpreting of patterns of circumstances and conditions associated with those personal experiences, of cognizing other sentient beings, of empathy, etc., all of which can be broken down and analyzed in terms of moments of consciousness accompanied by mental factors.

For the receiver, the experience is likewise composed a a series of moments of consciousness involving immediate experiences, present memories of past experiences, habitual thought patterns, etc. etc.

Earlier I referred to a motion picture film which is composed of a series of static images which when put through a projector, through a sort of trompe l'oeil creates the impression of live action on the screen. This is the nature of our entire lived experience, according to Buddhist psychology. We gloss this precise process in order to talk about conventional cause and effect of dana, but we need to keep in mind the conventionality of this mode of description and when practicing it, understand that the process is taking place mind moment to mind moment. This understanding is critical for practice because it helps us to focus us on the field of endeavor, to enhance our awareness of right view, to enhance our practice, to cultivate our wisdom.

2 cents.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 12:53 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 am It is similar to human relationships, like between parents and children, between siblings, with your spouse, etc...
… You will anyhow experience something, maybe unconsciously, that is caused by your past generosity.
That experience is the feedback you get from others. You’re experiencing what others have been giving you. The giving and receiving in this kind of situation is mutual. So, of course, if you receive something, you get an experience from it.

But that doesn’t have anything to do with why giving to a good dharma center or a worthwhile charity provides the opportunity to gain more merit than giving to one needy person.

There’s certainly merit in giving to one needy person. But it is quickly exhausted because the residual effect or ripple effect is minimal.

If I give a poor and hungry person money for a meal, they will still be hungry again tomorrow. If I give that money to someone who is feeding poor hungry people every day, that poor and hungry individual can eat every day.

And if I give freely without any of my own mental baggage attached to it, the merit is really great because it is at least a moment free of self-grasping, which is essential for realizing liberation from samsara.

This doesn’t mean you should avoid giving to an individual needy person if the occasion arises.

Generosity is the first of the Six Perfections. and giving without any attachment to the concept of giver, receiver, or object given is the perfection of generosity.

Itivuttaka: The Group of Threes
translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland

§ 75. A Rainless Cloud

"Bhikkhus, these three kinds of persons are found existing in the world. What three? One who is like a rainless cloud, one who rains locally, and one who rains everywhere.

"Now what kind of person, bhikkhus, is like a rainless cloud? Here, a certain person is not a giver to anyone; he does not give food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, lodging, and lamps to recluses and brahmans, to the poor, destitute, and needy. This kind of person is like a rainless cloud.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the kind of person who rains locally? Here, a certain person is a giver to some but not a giver to others. Food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, lodging, and lamps he gives only to some recluses and brahmans, to some of the poor, destitute, and needy, but not to others. This is the kind of person who rains locally.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the kind of person who rains everywhere? Here, a certain person gives to all. He gives food, drink, clothing, vehicles, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, lodging, and lamps to all recluses and brahmans, to the poor, destitute, and needy. This is the kind of person who rains everywhere."


Vaccha Sutta: To Vaccha
(on Giving) translated from the Pali byThanissaro Bhikkhu

"Master Gotama, I have heard that 'Gotama the contemplative says this: "Only to me should a gift be given, and not to others. Only to my disciples should a gift be given, and not to others. Only what is given to me bears great fruit, and not what is given to others. Only what is given to my disciples bears great fruit, and not what is given to the disciples of others."' Now those who report this: Are they reporting the Master Gotama's actual words, are they not misrepresenting him with what is unfactual, are they answering in line with the Dhamma, so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing them? For we don't want to misrepresent the Master Gotama."

"Vaccha, whoever says this: 'Gotama the contemplative says this: "Only to me should a gift be given... Only what is given to my disciples bears great fruit, and not what is given to the disciples of others,"' is not reporting my actual words, is misrepresenting me with what is unfactual & untrue.

"Vaccha, whoever prevents another from giving a gift creates three obstructions, three impediments. Which three? He creates an obstruction to the merit of the giver, an obstruction to the recipient's gains, and prior to that he undermines and harms his own self. Whoever prevents another from giving a gift creates these three obstructions, these three impediments.

"I tell you, Vaccha, even if a person throws the rinsings of a bowl or a cup into a village pool or pond, thinking, 'May whatever animals live here feed on this,' that would be a source of merit, to say nothing of what is given to human beings. But I do say that what is given to a virtuous person is of great fruit, and not so much what is given to an unvirtuous person."


How do you know if a person is virtuous or not? What if the beggar is the god Indra or bodhisattva Lokeshvara in disguise ?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Soma999
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Soma999 »

Buddha is omniscient and wish for the welfare of all. So, by giving to anyone with the right intention, that is an offering to the Buddha.

If you help someome rise, if you express compassion for the needy, and you consider Buddha is in this person, that is an offering to the Buddha.

If you wish to help out of real concern and not only out of selfish interest, you practice Bodicitta, and you serve all the Buddhas.

Serving sentient beings is serving the Buddhas (sutra « posessing the limbs of all the Buddhas »).

You can even think you are just a tool through which Buddha offer to himself. Even thought you give, there is no one to give. Even thought someome receive, there is no one to receive. Even thought there is an offering, nothing is offered. By resting in the absence of separated beings, focusing on the true nature of things, this offering is a suchness offering.

There is also said « helping someone is more valuable than giving offerings to all the buddha. What is to say of the wish to benefits all sentient beings ? ».

Humans beings are the Buddhas of the future.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Aemilius wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:23 am But I do say that what is given to a virtuous person is of great fruit, and not so much what is given to an unvirtuous person."


How do you know if a person is virtuous or not? What if the beggar is the god Indra or bodhisattva Lokeshvara in disguise ?
Sorry, I don’t understand the point of the question.

(I italicized the sutra quote simply to distinguish it from the question)
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Queequeg
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Re: karma and its fruit or fruits

Post by Queequeg »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:57 pm
Aemilius wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 8:23 am But I do say that what is given to a virtuous person is of great fruit, and not so much what is given to an unvirtuous person."


How do you know if a person is virtuous or not? What if the beggar is the god Indra or bodhisattva Lokeshvara in disguise ?
Sorry, I don’t understand the point of the question.

(I italicized the sutra quote simply to distinguish it from the question)
Its a question that kind of misses the point of those stories of various great beings appearing in the guise of another in order to approach and test the practitioner. Those stories are meant to illustrate the greatness of those practitioners. It would be necessary to take each story in turn to discern the intended meaning.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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