Rinzai Lineage

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tingdzin
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Rinzai Lineage

Post by tingdzin »

Does anyone have information about the Rinzai linage of Cold Mountain to which Kritee Kanko (see thread on climate change suicide) belongs? Who was her teacher, and her teacher's teacher, etc.
Matylda
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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tingdzin wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 6:30 am Does anyone have information about the Rinzai linage of Cold Mountain to which Kritee Kanko (see thread on climate change suicide) belongs? Who was her teacher, and her teacher's teacher, etc.
https://coldmountainzen.org/about-cold- ... e-lineage/

They claim some links with HANShan - ssu, or Kanzan-ji in Japanese. I visited the place with Japnaese delegation, I remember this temple very vividly, though it was a long time ago and I spent there a short while. Well it is very tourist oriented temple, they have a small sodo, where my friend sat in zazen for a while, the sodo is in a backyard of the temple. It is not big, but place have thousands of tourists everyday, some printing workshop, where they sell famous poems of Kanzan etc. and some nice shops rather expensive but nice figures etc.
they have some study programm of course in Chinese in both classical and modern language, like some sutras Diamond Prajna among some other etc. it looked more like general mahayana schedule. The small zendo is very cozy, but it is sat up in a private part of the temple with school for monks and dormitory, loundry hanging outside the hall and boys looking out of the windows at strangers.
As for their claim about Japanese obaku school, so as far as I know there was no Westerner yet, who completed obaku koan training or any other training in obaku's Mampukuji, which is the main obaku training hall in Japan.

There is no such thing like "Chinese abbot recognizing dharma transmission" of a foreigner etc. it is perfectly false claim. There would be also no denial in China concerning dharma transmission in other countries or traditions and lineages. So again it is just very strange claim.

I do not say that they are false teachers etc. since this I do not know, but what is for sure strange or not what they claim this I pointed out.
tingdzin
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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Thank you very much.
ItsRaining
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

Post by ItsRaining »

Matylda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:42 am
There is no such thing like "Chinese abbot recognizing dharma transmission" of a foreigner etc. it is perfectly false claim. There would be also no denial in China concerning dharma transmission in other countries or traditions and lineages. So again it is just very strange claim.
What do you mean by this?
Matylda
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

Post by Matylda »

ItsRaining wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 9:00 am
Matylda wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:42 am
There is no such thing like "Chinese abbot recognizing dharma transmission" of a foreigner etc. it is perfectly false claim. There would be also no denial in China concerning dharma transmission in other countries or traditions and lineages. So again it is just very strange claim.
What do you mean by this?
Very simple. No Chinese abbot or Japanese abbot would ever mingle into dharma transmission whether confirming or denying it if it concerns other country or tradition. They do not interfer, they just be indeferent or one may say perfectly neutral. If one goes to China and says I am so-and-so of this or that lineage, they will probably smile, what might be thought as acceptance etc. but confirmation? or anything like that? no way, unless an individual does not receive dharma transmission proper from an abbot himself. I have already met some Western `teachers` of for example Japanese zen who claimed that they were confirmed by someone in China. It was not true. Chinese simply do not do it. Neither Japanese if it concerns non-Japanese tradition.
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seeker242
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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Miyauchi Kanko > Glenn Taylor Webb > Kurt Spellmeyer > Kritee Kanko

Is teacher, teacher's teacher, etc.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Matylda
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

Post by Matylda »

seeker242 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:31 pm Miyauchi Kanko > Glenn Taylor Webb > Kurt Spellmeyer > Kritee Kanko

Is teacher, teacher's teacher, etc.
so gave Miyauchi Kanko inka shomei in rinzai? since that is not clear. I can check all Japanese charts of every rinzai and obaku roshi in Meiji-Showa and Showa-Heisei den, so it should be very easy and simple. Then it will be very clear about this particular lineage. Other non-monastic lineages I could also check, there are only two anyway.
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seeker242
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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Matylda wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 12:38 pm
seeker242 wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 12:31 pm Miyauchi Kanko > Glenn Taylor Webb > Kurt Spellmeyer > Kritee Kanko

Is teacher, teacher's teacher, etc.
so gave Miyauchi Kanko inka shomei in rinzai? since that is not clear. I can check all Japanese charts of every rinzai and obaku roshi in Meiji-Showa and Showa-Heisei den, so it should be very easy and simple. Then it will be very clear about this particular lineage. Other non-monastic lineages I could also check, there are only two anyway.
I don't know :smile: Glenn Webb claims to have received inka from Miyauchi while they were on pilgrimage in India. Who Miyauchi was or where he received his transmission from no clue. But Glen's teacher was Miyauchi, Kurt's teacher was Glenn, Kritee's teacher was Kurt, that much is clear.

This here is a description of the history according to Kurt:
Our lineage belongs to the Japanese Rinzai school of Zen, but it is a rather unusual lineage. It began in the Ming Dynasty—the 17th century--when a group of monks from Mount Huangbo in China came to Japan and founded what is now called Obaku Zen. Obaku became the third Zen tradition in Japan, the other two being Rinzai and Soto Zen. At that time, the monks from China thought they were just bringing the latest form of Rinzai Zen, but in Japan it was treated as a separate school, Obaku.

Along with the Huangbo delegation to Japan there was one lone Rinzai monk who came from the Han Shan Si or "Cold Mountain Temple" in Suzhou. He went on to start a new temple in Japan, Kanko-ji, in what is now Kameoka. Since then, there has been an unbroken lineage of priests in this tradition. This is called the Cold Mountain tradition of Zen. It started in the Han Shan temple in Suzhou and continued through this Japanese lineage until the World War II period, when the lineage holder was a man named Miyauchi Kanko. He had one Dharma heir, Kangan Webb, an American, who was my teacher. Kangan trained with Miyauchi Roshi at Kanko-ji but he also trained at Myoshin-ji. All the priests who trained at the Kanko-ji temple also trained at Myoshin-ji or Ryutaku-ji, which are the two major Rinzai training temples.
According to Glenn, this line died out in Japan when Miyauchi died and Glenn decided to not stay in Japan.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
Matylda
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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seeker242 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 1:49 pm
Along with the Huangbo delegation to Japan there was one lone Rinzai monk who came from the Han Shan Si or "Cold Mountain Temple" in Suzhou. He went on to start a new temple in Japan, Kanko-ji, in what is now Kameoka. Since then, there has been an unbroken lineage of priests in this tradition. This is called the Cold Mountain tradition of Zen. It started in the Han Shan temple in Suzhou and continued through this Japanese lineage until the World War II period, when the lineage holder was a man named Miyauchi Kanko. He had one Dharma heir, Kangan Webb, an American, who was my teacher. Kangan trained with Miyauchi Roshi at Kanko-ji but he also trained at Myoshin-ji. All the priests who trained at the Kanko-ji temple also trained at Myoshin-ji or Ryutaku-ji, which are the two major Rinzai training temples.
According to Glenn, this line died out in Japan when Miyauchi died and Glenn decided to not stay in Japan.
[/quote]


Hmmm it is eyebrows raising claim.
First he suggested that it is obaku lineage which died out over 100 years ago in Japan, so obaku school run into rinzai proper, i.e. they took inka from rinzai, exactly from the Takuju line. There was no survivng obaku lineage, since then obaku would use naturally so called Miyauchi line.

Second, come on, the priest ddied and the entire lineage together with him? Such things simply do not happen, so easily, but could help to make claim, that there are no people of this family, everyone died no trace left and so on. NO way. Obaku would keep the records and it is very easy to trace such claim.

Third if he was rinzai, not onbaku, then the whole thing is even easier since all lineages belong to one of the 14 lineages of the rinzai head temples, and records are clear and kept carefully, due to couteract false claims and there are no mistakes.

Every roshi in Japan, from popular lineage or just little lineage was disciple of some other roshi of the previous generation. And mostly we do know who came from where and who suceeded whom. If you look at Shibayama Zenkei, Yamada Mumon, Omori Sogen, Sasaki Joshu and others the origin is very clear. Isn`t it?
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seeker242
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Re: Rinzai Lineage

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Matylda wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 2:48 pm Every roshi in Japan, from popular lineage or just little lineage was disciple of some other roshi of the previous generation. And mostly we do know who came from where and who suceeded whom. If you look at Shibayama Zenkei, Yamada Mumon, Omori Sogen, Sasaki Joshu and others the origin is very clear. Isn`t it?
I don't know, and I don't care either. I made no claims, for or against, any notions of lineage authenticity. The person asked who the teachers were and that's who the teachers were.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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