Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

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ddorje
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Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by ddorje »

Hey everyone,

Was wondering if anyone had any clarity on the reason why the 8 Kagye, and many Nyingma Yidams (e.g Vajrakilaya, Hayagriva, Chemchok) are depicted as larger proportioned (like Vajrapani is), compared to other deities in the Sarma: say Chakrasamvara, Hevajra or Kalachakra.

There are seemingly a few depictions of Yidam deities in the Nyingma tradition that appear a little like these forms (e.g Lama Gondu) but I was wondering if anyone knows if this is a development due to artistic depiction or if it’s textual and in the liturgies.
'Maybe you collect a lot of important writings, major texts, personal instructions private notes, whatever. If you haven't practiced, books won't help you when you die. Look at the mind - that's my sincere advice' - Longchen Rabjam
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lelopa
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by lelopa »

The Kagye are very wrathful deities and are depicted like that.
Kalacakra, Hevajra, a.s.o. are semi-wrathful and not so fat.
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heart
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by heart »

ddorje wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 5:50 am Hey everyone,

Was wondering if anyone had any clarity on the reason why the 8 Kagye, and many Nyingma Yidams (e.g Vajrakilaya, Hayagriva, Chemchok) are depicted as larger proportioned (like Vajrapani is), compared to other deities in the Sarma: say Chakrasamvara, Hevajra or Kalachakra.

There are seemingly a few depictions of Yidam deities in the Nyingma tradition that appear a little like these forms (e.g Lama Gondu) but I was wondering if anyone knows if this is a development due to artistic depiction or if it’s textual and in the liturgies.
Lama Gongdu deities are semi-wrathful, it is in the liturgies, and there are many other such deities in the Nyingma. Actually there are so many deities in the Nyingma because of the numerous termas.

/magnus
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ddorje
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by ddorje »

Makes a lot of sense, I was unaware the Sarma Heruka’s forms were semi-wrathful. Thanks for input
'Maybe you collect a lot of important writings, major texts, personal instructions private notes, whatever. If you haven't practiced, books won't help you when you die. Look at the mind - that's my sincere advice' - Longchen Rabjam
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

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ddorje wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:19 am Makes a lot of sense, I was unaware the Sarma Heruka’s forms were semi-wrathful. Thanks for input
Actually, it is more correct to say that Sarma Herukas, like Samvara, Hevajra, Mahamaya, Kalacakra, etc. are multivalent —emotionally. They expresses multiple attitudes simultaneously. Bliss, compassionate gaze, wrath, haughty pride, and peace…all at once.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

conebeckham wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:48 am Actually, it is more correct to say that Sarma Herukas, like Samvara, Hevajra, Mahamaya, Kalacakra, etc. are multivalent —emotionally. They expresses multiple attitudes simultaneously. Bliss, compassionate gaze, wrath, haughty pride, and peace…all at once.
It’s the same or similar in Nyingma. Wrathful deities are said to possess 9 attributes: being very captivating, strong & heroic, frightening, having thunderous laughter, yelling, loud & wrathful speech, being compassionate, being in a state of the utmost peace & relaxation, and basically ready to jump at the chance to benefit sentient beings.
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conebeckham
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by conebeckham »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:24 pm
conebeckham wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:48 am Actually, it is more correct to say that Sarma Herukas, like Samvara, Hevajra, Mahamaya, Kalacakra, etc. are multivalent —emotionally. They expresses multiple attitudes simultaneously. Bliss, compassionate gaze, wrath, haughty pride, and peace…all at once.
It’s the same or similar in Nyingma. Wrathful deities are said to possess 9 attributes: being very captivating, strong & heroic, frightening, having thunderous laughter, yelling, loud & wrathful speech, being compassionate, being in a state of the utmost peace & relaxation, and basically ready to jump at the chance to benefit sentient beings.
Yes, those 9 “moods” are similar, but the so- called “semi-wrathful” yidams of Sarma seem to focus more on unbearable bliss and desire….
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

Gotcha.
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by videodhara »

heart wrote:Lama Gongdu deities are semi-wrathful, it is in the liturgies, and there are many other such deities in the Nyingma. Actually there are so many deities in the Nyingma because of the numerous termas.

/magnus
I’ve been discovering this more recently as I dive into the Rigdzin Düpa. My focus has mostly been on Vajrakilaya, and I put R.D. On the back burner. Now looking into some historical literature and it’s a little overwhelming. Have a question about it actually: Does this proliferation have more to do with the diversity of tantras in India that a Padmasambhava brought to Tibet, or with the prevalence of mind-to-mind, visionary transmissions in the Nyingma terms tradition?
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by Kai lord »

videodhara wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:53 am Have a question about it actually: Does this proliferation have more to do with the diversity of tantras in India that a Padmasambhava brought to Tibet, or with the prevalence of mind-to-mind, visionary transmissions in the Nyingma terms tradition?
Looking at Nyingma Gyubum which said to contain only texts from kama lineages and very little from the termas (don't know how true that is). They are said to be around like "The Hundred Thousand Tantras" :shock: Some divide Nyingma Gyubum into the following categories:

10 volumes of Ati Yoga
3 volumes of Anu Yoga
6 volumes of the tantra Section of Mahayoga
13 volumes of the sadhana Section of Mahayoga
1 volume of protector tantras
3 volumes of catalogues and historical background


Don't know about you but it looks to me that Kama's volumes is already a vast ocean of Dharma.
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by Malcolm »

Kai lord wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:27 pm
videodhara wrote: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:53 am Have a question about it actually: Does this proliferation have more to do with the diversity of tantras in India that a Padmasambhava brought to Tibet, or with the prevalence of mind-to-mind, visionary transmissions in the Nyingma terms tradition?
Looking at Nyingma Gyubum which said to contain only texts from kama lineages and very little from the termas (don't know how true that is). They are said to be around like "The Hundred Thousand Tantras" :shock: Some divide Nyingma Gyubum into the following categories:

10 volumes of Ati Yoga
3 volumes of Anu Yoga
6 volumes of the tantra Section of Mahayoga
13 volumes of the sadhana Section of Mahayoga
1 volume of protector tantras
3 volumes of catalogues and historical background


Don't know about you but it looks to me that Kama's volumes is already a vast ocean of Dharma.
'bum here just means "volumes."
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by ZopaChotso »

Pema Rigdzin wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:24 pm
conebeckham wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:48 am Actually, it is more correct to say that Sarma Herukas, like Samvara, Hevajra, Mahamaya, Kalacakra, etc. are multivalent —emotionally. They expresses multiple attitudes simultaneously. Bliss, compassionate gaze, wrath, haughty pride, and peace…all at once.
It’s the same or similar in Nyingma. Wrathful deities are said to possess 9 attributes: being very captivating, strong & heroic, frightening, having thunderous laughter, yelling, loud & wrathful speech, being compassionate, being in a state of the utmost peace & relaxation, and basically ready to jump at the chance to benefit sentient beings.
Where can I learn more about these "moods"
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AmidaB
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by AmidaB »

ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:16 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 9:24 pm
conebeckham wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 11:48 am Actually, it is more correct to say that Sarma Herukas, like Samvara, Hevajra, Mahamaya, Kalacakra, etc. are multivalent —emotionally. They expresses multiple attitudes simultaneously. Bliss, compassionate gaze, wrath, haughty pride, and peace…all at once.
It’s the same or similar in Nyingma. Wrathful deities are said to possess 9 attributes: being very captivating, strong & heroic, frightening, having thunderous laughter, yelling, loud & wrathful speech, being compassionate, being in a state of the utmost peace & relaxation, and basically ready to jump at the chance to benefit sentient beings.
Where can I learn more about these "moods"
Indian dances and theatre performance and their theory as well.
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Re: Nyingma Herukas and their depiction

Post by Pema Rigdzin »

ZopaChotso wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 2:16 am
Where can I learn more about these "moods"
Maybe in a commentary on the Guhyagarbha, such as Mipham’s or Longchenpa’s? There’s brief mention of them in my guru’s Tsasum Lingpa Kilaya commentary, The Dark Red Amulet.
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