Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

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Lingpupa
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Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Lingpupa »

Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Well known and very true. But what is the earliest known source for this? I quickly Googled, but only found Tulku Orgyen, and I'm pretty sure the saying goes back a long way. But where?
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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heart
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by heart »

Lingpupa wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:01 pm Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Well known and very true. But what is the earliest known source for this? I quickly Googled, but only found Tulku Orgyen, and I'm pretty sure the saying goes back a long way. But where?
Guru Rinpoche, however not sure in what text.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Lingpupa
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Lingpupa »

Yes, I knew it's attributed to Guru Rinpoche, I should have said. But indeed my question is "where"?
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 4:08 pm Yes, I knew it's attributed to Guru Rinpoche, I should have said. But indeed my question is "where"?
In several termas.
Montoya
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Montoya »

Not to sidetrack from the original question of attribution, I've wondered lately given the string of scandals up to and including lineage holders, how do gurus rationalize clearly not following this advice? I get that this is a line from terma and not vinaya or samaya (14 root downfalls, etc.) and it's obviously open to a certain amount of interpretation, but it's always seemed pretty clear to me.
stoneinfocus
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by stoneinfocus »

Montoya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:46 pm Not to sidetrack from the original question of attribution, I've wondered lately given the string of scandals up to and including lineage holders, how do gurus rationalize clearly not following this advice? I get that this is a line from terma and not vinaya or samaya (14 root downfalls, etc.) and it's obviously open to a certain amount of interpretation, but it's always seemed pretty clear to me.
Humans gonna human, power corrupts, etc...Just keep in mind that there are a huge number of good lamas, teachers, practitioners, and gurus that follow this advice and don't get caught up in this. You just don't hear about them because they're not famous.
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Lingpupa
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Lingpupa »

:good:
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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heart
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by heart »

Montoya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:46 pm Not to sidetrack from the original question of attribution, I've wondered lately given the string of scandals up to and including lineage holders, how do gurus rationalize clearly not following this advice? I get that this is a line from terma and not vinaya or samaya (14 root downfalls, etc.) and it's obviously open to a certain amount of interpretation, but it's always seemed pretty clear to me.
The Guru Drinks Bourbon

"We should rejoice that not all Buddha's disciples were like Shariputra and
Kashyapa-serene, with bare feet and a begging bowl. From time immemo-
rial we have had characters like Kukuraza, Drukpa Kuenley, and Do Khyentse
Yeshe Dorje. I am so proud as a Buddhist to venerate the mahasiddha Dari-
kapa, a prostitute's slave, as one of our own. In the Vimalakirti Sutra, Buddha
Shakyamuni himself said the lotus will flourish only in muddy water. We
cannot afford to forget that--otherwise Buddhism will end up becoming a
puritanical, moralistic system that will stake a claim as an organized religion
and start a republic."

"While some followers are put off by the Vajrayana's incorporation of sexual
imagery and wine, there are others who take the Vajrayana path because of
these same things. Or because in their minds Vajrayana is less misogynistic
than the other yanas. To them, the segregation of men and women in the
Mahayana and Shravakayana traditions is a form of misogynistic fundamen-
tal religious extremism. You can't really say one yana is wrong and another
is right. But if you have strong feelings about how a guru should behave, you
may not be fit for tantra."

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Lingpupa
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Lingpupa »

heart wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:44 am
The Guru Drinks Bourbon
...
--otherwise Buddhism will end up becoming a puritanical, moralistic system..."
Yes, absolutely. A puritanical, moralistic, legalistic system would be grim.

But no, relatively. Rejecting the above should not lead to acceptance of self-indulgent "gurus" who abuse others and destroy themselves.

The middle way strikes again! Common sense and intelligence still needed! Surprise? I don't think so.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:44 amBut if you have strong feelings about how a guru should behave, you
may not be fit for tantra."

/magnus
I guess the Buddha should not have taught Vajrayana, since in the tantras he expresses quite strong opinions about how gurus should behave. To put it mildly, Trungpa was not the model.
Soma999
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Soma999 »

The guru should stop drinking bourbon and start smoking weed and turn it into a skillfull mean. That would be in the spirit of tantra. Alcohol turn people violent. By leaving bourbon the « guru » would maybe stop defending unskilful action like those of Sogyal Rinpoche and be more compassionate.
Natan
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Natan »

Few people know that Guru Padmasambhava killed one of the guards in his fortress and then had to go on the run. His father was King Jah. He still became Padmasambhava. It seems he figured out how to fix his behavior. But one cannot judge a guru by his history. Buddha left his family with no announcement. There are no angels here. It's a path of self correction.
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Virgo
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Virgo »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:47 pm Few people know that Guru Padmasambhava killed one of the guards in his fortress and then had to go on the run. His father was King Jah. He still became Padmasambhava. It seems he figured out how to fix his behavior. But one cannot judge a guru by his history. Buddha left his family with no announcement. There are no angels here. It's a path of self correction.
Hahaha you believe those mythologies? Guru Rinpoche was just a guy; a guy who had human teachers and attained realization.

Virgo
Montoya
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Montoya »

heart wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:44 am
Montoya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:46 pm Not to sidetrack from the original question of attribution, I've wondered lately given the string of scandals up to and including lineage holders, how do gurus rationalize clearly not following this advice? I get that this is a line from terma and not vinaya or samaya (14 root downfalls, etc.) and it's obviously open to a certain amount of interpretation, but it's always seemed pretty clear to me.
The Guru Drinks Bourbon

"We should rejoice that not all Buddha's disciples were like Shariputra and
Kashyapa-serene, with bare feet and a begging bowl. From time immemo-
rial we have had characters like Kukuraza, Drukpa Kuenley, and Do Khyentse
Yeshe Dorje. I am so proud as a Buddhist to venerate the mahasiddha Dari-
kapa, a prostitute's slave, as one of our own. In the Vimalakirti Sutra, Buddha
Shakyamuni himself said the lotus will flourish only in muddy water. We
cannot afford to forget that--otherwise Buddhism will end up becoming a
puritanical, moralistic system that will stake a claim as an organized religion
and start a republic."

"While some followers are put off by the Vajrayana's incorporation of sexual
imagery and wine, there are others who take the Vajrayana path because of
these same things. Or because in their minds Vajrayana is less misogynistic
than the other yanas. To them, the segregation of men and women in the
Mahayana and Shravakayana traditions is a form of misogynistic fundamen-
tal religious extremism. You can't really say one yana is wrong and another
is right. But if you have strong feelings about how a guru should behave, you
may not be fit for tantra."

/magnus
I understand what DJKR is saying here, but it doesn't actually address my question. How would DJKR frame the Padmasambhava (revered as a second Buddha!) quote?

Would he argue:

1) It's not actually a Padmasambhava quote?
2) There is a different/hidden meaning beyond what seems to be pretty obvious?
3) The quote doesn't 'apply' to so-called crazy wisdom masters? If so, what about the quote suggests it was not meant to apply?
4) Some other line of reasoning?
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Lingpupa »

:good:
Good, clear question. I look forward to the answers. But it's OK - I'll wait.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
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yagmort
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by yagmort »

i got the impression the whole "crazy wisdom" idea has become perverted by recent abusive gurus.

they talk about wine and sex and what seems like abusive behaviors but they try to present that as something they do to benefit others.

meanwhile, when i look at the examples of those masters who considered to be enlightened madmans, the abusive gurus looks nothing alike and, frankly, pale in comparison big time.

for example, once while in Tsari Tsang Nyon Heruka held brown sugar in one hand and feces in the other, biting from each of them. on another occasion he tucked his genitals between his legs and was chasing men shouting "frak me! frak me!".. is it crazy, shocking behaviour? most certainly yes. is it abusive behavior? most certainly not.

another thing is that type of crazy behaviour wasn't an everyday routine. perhaps Thanthong Gyalpo or Tsang Nyon Heruka did slap or beat someone once or twice, but that was a specific occasion, not an everyday physical abuse. now, did Trungpa or Sogyal ever ate feces? all they did just manipulate and abuse their students.

when it comes to Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche i got a feeling recently that he kind of getting more and more into that compromised territory. he praised personalities like Trungpa, Osho or Ghenghis Khan and his books are getting more and more into justifying controversial behavior, they are like: "if you'll get into Vajrayana territory i'll do whatever i want to you. that's Vajrayana for you right there. you've been warned"
stay open, spread love
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heart
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by heart »

Montoya wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 11:04 pm
heart wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:44 am
Montoya wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:46 pm Not to sidetrack from the original question of attribution, I've wondered lately given the string of scandals up to and including lineage holders, how do gurus rationalize clearly not following this advice? I get that this is a line from terma and not vinaya or samaya (14 root downfalls, etc.) and it's obviously open to a certain amount of interpretation, but it's always seemed pretty clear to me.
The Guru Drinks Bourbon

"We should rejoice that not all Buddha's disciples were like Shariputra and
Kashyapa-serene, with bare feet and a begging bowl. From time immemo-
rial we have had characters like Kukuraza, Drukpa Kuenley, and Do Khyentse
Yeshe Dorje. I am so proud as a Buddhist to venerate the mahasiddha Dari-
kapa, a prostitute's slave, as one of our own. In the Vimalakirti Sutra, Buddha
Shakyamuni himself said the lotus will flourish only in muddy water. We
cannot afford to forget that--otherwise Buddhism will end up becoming a
puritanical, moralistic system that will stake a claim as an organized religion
and start a republic."

"While some followers are put off by the Vajrayana's incorporation of sexual
imagery and wine, there are others who take the Vajrayana path because of
these same things. Or because in their minds Vajrayana is less misogynistic
than the other yanas. To them, the segregation of men and women in the
Mahayana and Shravakayana traditions is a form of misogynistic fundamen-
tal religious extremism. You can't really say one yana is wrong and another
is right. But if you have strong feelings about how a guru should behave, you
may not be fit for tantra."

/magnus
I understand what DJKR is saying here, but it doesn't actually address my question. How would DJKR frame the Padmasambhava (revered as a second Buddha!) quote?

Would he argue:

1) It's not actually a Padmasambhava quote?
2) There is a different/hidden meaning beyond what seems to be pretty obvious?
3) The quote doesn't 'apply' to so-called crazy wisdom masters? If so, what about the quote suggests it was not meant to apply?
4) Some other line of reasoning?
I don't know if I can talk for DJKR but I am pretty sure he fully embrace the the Padmasambhava quote. The way we behave have consequences, this is obvious in Buddhism. You can behave according to rules, like monks and nuns do. You can behave according to compassion, like bodhisattvas do. You can behave according to wisdom, like vidyadharas do. Let's take a look at Do Khyentse Yeshe Dorje in the example. He lived with bandits, he hunted animals, he drank alcohol. He behaved in a way most people would define as very bad. Still he was a major master in the Longchen Nyingtik lineage. He gave Patrul Rinpoche a direct introduction by beating him up and spitting in his face and calling him an old dog. Was it bad behaviour or was it fortunate for the whole lineage of Longchen Nyingtik? The way you seem to understand "conduct fine as barley flour" seem to me to lean towards the Shravakayana way of following rules and for sure that is good, quite wonderful, but would it been enough for giving Patrul Rinpoche a direct introduction? Acting according to wisdom don't, in my opinion, always be understandable for those not involved. The people that witnessed Do Khyentse beat up Patrul probably thought Do Khyentse was punishing Patrul or just that he was so drunk he lost his mind. Acting according to wisdom is difficult to understand, did he really have to beat Patrul? Maybe he could have given him a kiss instead? Almost impossible for us to know. What we know for sure is in the Tantric tradition there are masters that sometimes behave in ways that people in general defines as bad but did that mean they behaved only in self interest or did it mean they still acted from wisdom "fine as barley flour"? Difficult to know for sure and that is certainly one reason to warn people to get involved in Vajrayana. I don't mean to excuse all Lamas causing scandals lately, because what do I actually know about that, but I have personally experienced Lamas behaving in unusual ways that been beneficial for me personally. So I do agree with DJKR, one of my most important teachers, I also am proud to call these unusual masters "one of our own" and I do think it is possible to act out of wisdom "fine as barley flour" even if the rest of the world will see that action as rude, crude and criminal.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Soma999
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Soma999 »

Before searching for « crazy wisdom » people should first have « common sense wisdom », that would be very good.

A master in India hit a sick person, paralysed, at that instant this person was completly healed.

Unless you have such siddhis, acting like this, imitating them is criminal.
Malcolm
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Sun Apr 24, 2022 9:34 amHe gave Patrul Rinpoche a direct introduction by beating him up and spitting in his face and calling him an old dog. Was it bad behaviour or was it fortunate for the whole lineage of Longchen Nyingtik?
The immediate problem here is assuming that every Vajrayāna practitioner is sufficiently ripened to benefit from such treatment and has sufficient faith in their teacher not to flee in terror.

Some western students hear rumors of such antics by Tibetan teachers. They then develop a kind of machismo around tolerating such displays. All I can say is that all of my gurus have been unfailingly kind to all of their students, and never hit, abused, spat upon, yelled at, or beat up anyone. Tibetans have a culture where they tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the teacher. We do not have such a culture, and to the majority of westerners tolerating such behavior looks rather cultish on the face of it. Wise teachers adapt to circumstances.

The adoption of unconventional behavior in India has a lengthy history, even by the 10th century. The Buddha recorded the behavior of ascetics during his day. Such unconventional behavior was well tolerated in the Indian context by the time of the Buddha. At first, the Tibetans were quite shocked by Indian siddhas and their behavior. Everyone forgets that Padmasambhava was not welcomed warmly by all Tibetans. There was considerable pushback to Padmasambhava by Tibetans as the more reliable early histories in which Padmasambhava is mentioned show. At this point, the person of Padmasambhava is lost in myth and legend, and the few contemporary historical glimpses we see of him the Old Tibetan Annals do not portray anything very remarkable.

By 1000 CE, the Tibetans had largely abandoned their old religion, of which only traces remain, and adopted Indian Tantric Buddhism completely, along with the magical wars siddhas were fighting with Hindus. We tend to view all of this anachronistically. But my point is, the notion of who a guru was and how he or she could treat students evolved in Tibetan society over a long period of time based on Indian antecedents. Indian Siddhas were the Marvel superheroes of Tibetan culture. We forget this, and we ought not.

Even so, was also much suspicion of Indian "atsaras" in later times as well. We have examples of Indian impersonating other more famous Indian teachers, for example, and the general suspicion of Nyingmapas of the time that many of the tantras being brought to Tibet from India were just composed by Indian pandits to rob naive Tibetan translations of gold, etc. But eventually, when the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations, we see Padmasambhava's myth cycle absorbing the deeds and personas of such famed Indians as Brahmin Vararuci (aka Loden Choksre), etc., and so on.

Thus, when we see teachers bringing up examples of Tilopa and Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa, Do Khyentse and Patrul, we have to remember we are talking about events in cultures not our own, with signifiers which are almost completely alien to the West.
Natan
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.

Post by Natan »

Virgo wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:44 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Sat Apr 23, 2022 6:47 pm Few people know that Guru Padmasambhava killed one of the guards in his fortress and then had to go on the run. His father was King Jah. He still became Padmasambhava. It seems he figured out how to fix his behavior. But one cannot judge a guru by his history. Buddha left his family with no announcement. There are no angels here. It's a path of self correction.
Hahaha you believe those mythologies? Guru Rinpoche was just a guy; a guy who had human teachers and attained realization.

Virgo
Just a guy who could hide teachings in Dakini language in solid rock to be found by a reborn disciple.
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