Are there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
- ManiThePainter
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
Block headed West.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 4:48 pmThe immediate problem here is assuming that every Vajrayāna practitioner is sufficiently ripened to benefit from such treatment and has sufficient faith in their teacher not to flee in terror.
Some western students hear rumors of such antics by Tibetan teachers. They then develop a kind of machismo around tolerating such displays. All I can say is that all of my gurus have been unfailingly kind to all of their students, and never hit, abused, spat upon, yelled at, or beat up anyone. Tibetans have a culture where they tend to give the benefit of the doubt to the teacher. We do not have such a culture, and to the majority of westerners tolerating such behavior looks rather cultish on the face of it. Wise teachers adapt to circumstances.
The adoption of unconventional behavior in India has a lengthy history, even by the 10th century. The Buddha recorded the behavior of ascetics during his day. Such unconventional behavior was well tolerated in the Indian context by the time of the Buddha. At first, the Tibetans were quite shocked by Indian siddhas and their behavior. Everyone forgets that Padmasambhava was not welcomed warmly by all Tibetans. There was considerable pushback to Padmasambhava by Tibetans as the more reliable early histories in which Padmasambhava is mentioned show. At this point, the person of Padmasambhava is lost in myth and legend, and the few contemporary historical glimpses we see of him the Old Tibetan Annals do not portray anything very remarkable.
By 1000 CE, the Tibetans had largely abandoned their old religion, of which only traces remain, and adopted Indian Tantric Buddhism completely, along with the magical wars siddhas were fighting with Hindus. We tend to view all of this anachronistically. But my point is, the notion of who a guru was and how he or she could treat students evolved in Tibetan society over a long period of time based on Indian antecedents. Indian Siddhas were the Marvel superheroes of Tibetan culture. We forget this, and we ought not.
Even so, was also much suspicion of Indian "atsaras" in later times as well. We have examples of Indian impersonating other more famous Indian teachers, for example, and the general suspicion of Nyingmapas of the time that many of the tantras being brought to Tibet from India were just composed by Indian pandits to rob naive Tibetan translations of gold, etc. But eventually, when the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations, we see Padmasambhava's myth cycle absorbing the deeds and personas of such famed Indians as Brahmin Vararuci (aka Loden Choksre), etc., and so on.
Thus, when we see teachers bringing up examples of Tilopa and Naropa, Marpa and Milarepa, Do Khyentse and Patrul, we have to remember we are talking about events in cultures not our own, with signifiers which are almost completely alien to the West.
Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
Many.ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:05 pmAre there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
If you have the time, Davidson's Tibetan Renaissance is quite good, though a bit biased . Scholarship impeccable.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 6:19 pm ManiThePainter wrote: ↑Mon Apr 25, 2022 1:05 am
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 24, 2022 11:48 pm
eventually, […] the treasure tradition emerged to compete with the new Indian revelations
Are there any good books or academic papers on this subject? It’s fascinating.
Many.
- ManiThePainter
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
Cheers. Will give it a look.
"Don't mind me, just trying to find the nearest exit"
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
- someone stuck in Samsara... or maybe lost in Walmart
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
In reading about the crazy wisdom stuff, I'm reminded of examples of "crazy wisdom". In my opinion, true crazy wisdom has never abused anyone, it has always been about non-conventional behaviour.
I remember a story of one of my Lamas who had a student who was overcome with guilt that she couldn't let go. My Lama instructed her to carry bricks in her purse everywhere she went. So, following the guru's instruction she did. After a few days, she knew the point he was making. There was another where a student couldn't understand letting go. So, another one of my Lamas heated up a metal ball and underhand threw it to the student. At that moment, he got it. Personally, I was meditating completely normally after receiving the ngondro lung, and my lama screamed at the top of his lungs. I jumped out of my seat and said "HOLY frak SHIT JESUS!". But, right then, he said just to rest.
Crazy wisdom isn't just abusing students and making them go through terrible things. It's really about using skillful methods to deliver a point where words fail.
I remember a story of one of my Lamas who had a student who was overcome with guilt that she couldn't let go. My Lama instructed her to carry bricks in her purse everywhere she went. So, following the guru's instruction she did. After a few days, she knew the point he was making. There was another where a student couldn't understand letting go. So, another one of my Lamas heated up a metal ball and underhand threw it to the student. At that moment, he got it. Personally, I was meditating completely normally after receiving the ngondro lung, and my lama screamed at the top of his lungs. I jumped out of my seat and said "HOLY frak SHIT JESUS!". But, right then, he said just to rest.
Crazy wisdom isn't just abusing students and making them go through terrible things. It's really about using skillful methods to deliver a point where words fail.
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Re: Though the view should be as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour.
Curious, i woke up thinking of this words. If this are truly GP worts, and afaik they are, one might realize ati vision but not necessarily display ati conduct, lol.
I mean, outer conduct.
I mean, outer conduct.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.