Is love an illusion?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:06 pm
Bristollad wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:21 pm
Ardha wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:44 am I'm actually glad she passed away and suffered as she did before it, you can call it karma for scarring not only me but my brother and sister too. She didn't have real love for us it was just attachment to this image she had in her mind of things. Now I can begin to repair the damage she has done.
Taking pleasure in another's suffering is just forging arrows that in the future will come back to hit you.

As for your conclusions about me - they are wide of the mark.
Ardha wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:44 am Actions have consequences and if you keep trying to force your kids into fitting your image of them don't be surprised if they want nothing to do with you when they grow up.
My daughter is grown up. She is who she wants to be and that's fine by me. She sometimes asks my opinion, and sometimes even follows my advice. Often it's the other way around - she's got a good head on her shoulders and knows stuff I don't.
These won't come back to hit me, ever.

For the longest time my mom would threaten any back talk with kicking my out of the house and given that I can't support myself I was forced to bit my tongue all the time and never really say what I felt. Now I'm actually free to grow and develop myself and realize that the world around me isn't what she taught me. I really think you have a mistaken view of suffering and how it works. It doesn't always come back to bit you, in fact you can find several examples in the world where people have done worse and it doesn't come back to them.
IMO in a way this stuff has already come back to you, by limiting your ability to let go of your anger, and narrowing your view in such a way that you enjoy her suffering. I’d guess you are already experiencing results of how you approach this, and how you dig into this feeling or make peace with it will affect future actions and relationships as well.
But in my case she got the karma she was due, though I would never publicly admit it. Everyone around me who says she's kind and awesome clearly hasn't lived with her.
Yes, they might have a limited, partial view of her, you might have one too.
As someone mentioned you don't know my situation or what it was like to live with her so your comments are mistaken.
All I know how you generally present yourself here, which is as someone perpetually aggrieved with others and also endlessly critical of yourself and your own motives, say nothing of other people’s. I imagine it ain’t always a pleasant place to be, and I wonder if you are in the habit of constructing your own prison. We all do it, but acknowledging it goes a long way to finding some freedom.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

IMO in a way this stuff has already come back to you, by limiting your ability to let go of your anger, and narrowing your view in such a way that you enjoy her suffering. I’d guess you are already experiencing results of how you approach this, and how you dig into this feeling or make peace with it will affect future actions and relationships as well.
If I let go of my anger it would be excusing everything she did to me. My relationship with her however only affected my relationship with others in that I don't treat others the way that she treated me, because I know how suffocating that could be. I found it telling when the rest of the world treated me differently than my own mother did, generally in a more kind and understanding way.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by CPawo »

Ardha wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am
IMO in a way this stuff has already come back to you, by limiting your ability to let go of your anger, and narrowing your view in such a way that you enjoy her suffering. I’d guess you are already experiencing results of how you approach this, and how you dig into this feeling or make peace with it will affect future actions and relationships as well.
If I let go of my anger it would be excusing everything she did to me. My relationship with her however only affected my relationship with others in that I don't treat others the way that she treated me, because I know how suffocating that could be. I found it telling when the rest of the world treated me differently than my own mother did, generally in a more kind and understanding way.
There is a difference between forgetting and forgiving. You'll never forget what she did and that's OK - it can provide you with lessons learned, boundaries, direction, etc... If you want to live a better life you do need to find a way to forgive though. You don't have to of course, but that is the path forward to a better life.

The person who hurt me the most, destroyed my life as I knew it really, and put my family (2 children) in danger of falling apart is someone I still live with and love today 7 years later. Anger, resentment, blame, etc... are easy and they hold you back from growth as a human. The easy path for me would have been to let it fall apart and blame her for it happening - no one would have disagreed with that decision. What she did was selfish and awful with no regard for our family. It took a lot of deep work over years to get to where we are now, but boy is it worth it. Not the same exact situation of course, but hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Life is supposed to be hard and we as individuals are solely responsible for how we live it. If you harbor anger, resentment, and blame you are your own worst enemy. It's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to fall ill. Will never work. Like it or not, that's what you're doing here. I am not advocating that you reconcile with your Mother - that is likely a long arduous path if I'm hearing you correctly and may not be in the cards anyway if she's not willing to accept responsibility. I am advocating finding a way to forgive her for how she treated you. What she did was not intentional, it was learned behavior from her past. Being a parent is very difficult, it's a lot of pressure. Is there a chance she was going through tough times/suffering personally as well at that time? This is not to excuse her behavior, it is meant to maybe bring a wider perspective to how and why things happened so you can see that what she did was not done intentionally to personally hurt you. She was hurting and unfortunately wasn't equipped to deal with it so it spilt over to you. Damaged people damage other people unintentionally and that cycle typically continues on until someone decides to break it. You do have the power to break it.

Until you look deeper and better understand how/why things happened the way they did you'll be stuck where you're at (cycle of samsara). If you're being honest with yourself, I think you want out of this cycle.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ardha wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am
IMO in a way this stuff has already come back to you, by limiting your ability to let go of your anger, and narrowing your view in such a way that you enjoy her suffering. I’d guess you are already experiencing results of how you approach this, and how you dig into this feeling or make peace with it will affect future actions and relationships as well.
If I let go of my anger it would be excusing everything she did to me. My relationship with her however only affected my relationship with others in that I don't treat others the way that she treated me, because I know how suffocating that could be. I found it telling when the rest of the world treated me differently than my own mother did, generally in a more kind and understanding way.

The idea that your anger is somehow what helps you understand what happened is absurd, you don’t need anger for that.

Your anger has no effect on her at all here, only on you.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Miorita
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Miorita »

Let's define anger then!
It's a beautiful display of energy, large, impressive like in some deities. You want to hold onto it and it does not last. Behind it there is the love of the wrathdful deity. It's just an emotion.
Raw, beautiful anger is like an outside storm with display of lightning and thunder. It is an emotion, not a thought. We can step aside and admire it or look for its center. In the eye of it, there is no anger, it is calm and blissful peace.
If you hold onto your anger, you hold onto it.
If you let it go, then you reached that inner peace. Anger is just an emotion, it is not a thought.
Anger moves you, thoughts not so much. To sustain anger you need energy, psychic energy. How much do you have available? How often can you wake up hating every day?

Or this approach: anger caused by injustice. Once the person separates from the cause of unhapiness, the person might become calmer, more reason prone. But first you have to see that the anger is to be owned. Anger does not belong to his mother. She probably has no idea that she caused this inner torment inside Ardha. So it is Ardha who pays with energy not the mother. I use vague phrasing because I don't know the gender. I assume male, but I may be wrong. So who pays for wasting energy? Ardha.

What we can do is to accept to talk about regaining control of own psyche. And from this point of inner calm, we have done everything we could to help, that is address the problem. We need to be the cructhes and then once healing happens, then the person is able to move on past the problems, we are not needed any longer. Can we live with that?
Maybe we're going to argue endlessly.

But hey, it's a small discomfort and compare to what damages, raw, intense hatred can do! The whole body goes into the fighting mode, there is little space left for reason, in fact no reason at all, the view is distorted, blocked, and there is no taking back what of happens if you let anger take over you.
So, that is how I see it.

Miorita
And have a good day!
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

:alien:

Love is the common language in/on/of all religion and philosophies.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by SkyFox »

master of puppets wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:03 pm :alien:

Love is the common language in/on/of all religion and philosophies.
Except, just as there are many different religions and interpretations of them, there are also many different ways to interpret the concept of "love." For instance, a child that grows up with a cold and distance mother might associate being cold with familial love and actively seek it as an adult.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

Ardha wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:11 am

If I let go of my anger it would be excusing everything she did to me.
You think it is wrong to let go anger. but as said by others, this hurts you only. Anger/aversion is a fire destroying our own peace. Your mother is a victim of her own karmic mind and so karmic actions. You do not need to accept the actions (what she did), while let mother now in peace.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:16 am
master of puppets wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:03 pm :alien:

Love is the common language in/on/of all religion and philosophies.
Except, just as there are many different religions and interpretations of them, there are also many different ways to interpret the concept of "love." For instance, a child that grows up with a cold and distance mother might associate being cold with familial love and actively seek it as an adult.
The concepts for love are made by humans, could be supported by religions or kind of experience.
In love how it is perhaps meant by Buddha are even no religions, no other so or so.
“Love is the absence of judgment.” – Dalai Lama

True love really is when we are able to be with someone and love them without judging them. There should be no difference between love and unconditional love, all of love should be unconditional and that simply means there is no judgment in loving someone and you love them exactly as they are.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Giovanni »

I suggest that true radical acceptance of the other is only possible when we see the reality of things. That all is arising in Shunyata. When that view arises then concepts like love and hate dissolve. There are just things as they are. And when that happens our Bodhicitta guides our thoughts and actions. No clinging. No attraction/aversion. Cholceless compassion.

Or so I have heard.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

SkyFox wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 8:16 am
master of puppets wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 7:03 pm :alien:

Love is the common language in/on/of all religion and philosophies.
Except, just as there are many different religions and interpretations of them, there are also many different ways to interpret the concept of "love." For instance, a child that grows up with a cold and distance mother might associate being cold with familial love and actively seek it as an adult.
You should find your own way. :shrug:
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm
Yet there is part of me that thinks this person is missing something or misunderstanding something.

So, define what “not an illusion” love is.
Love exists within one’s mind (heart). You need to define what you mean by “illusion”.
Rain also comes and goes. We say that the weather is fickle. Does that mean it is an illusion?

What I mean is, tell me what’s the difference between illusion-love and not-illusion love.

Otherwise, “illusion” is just an abstract term that can mean whatever.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:53 pm
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm
Yet there is part of me that thinks this person is missing something or misunderstanding something.

So, define what “not an illusion” love is.
Love exists within one’s mind (heart). You need to define what you mean by “illusion”.
Rain also comes and goes. We say that the weather is fickle. Does that mean it is an illusion?

What I mean is, tell me what’s the difference between illusion-love and not-illusion love.

Otherwise, “illusion” is just an abstract term that can mean whatever.
I think illusion love is the next step always. in spirituality there is always a next step that you feel it is there but stay as illusion cause you couldn't grasp. a high level of understanding. we come this earth to make it real. :sage:
Last edited by master of puppets on Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

master of puppets wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:53 pm
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm
Yet there is part of me that thinks this person is missing something or misunderstanding something.

So, define what “not an illusion” love is.
Love exists within one’s mind (heart). You need to define what you mean by “illusion”.
Rain also comes and goes. We say that the weather is fickle. Does that mean it is an illusion?

What I mean is, tell me what’s the difference between illusion-love and not-illusion love.

Otherwise, “illusion” is just an abstract term that can mean whatever.
I think illusion love is the next step always. in spirituality there is always a next step that you feel it is there but stay as illusion cause you couldn't grasp. a high level of understanding. we come this earth to make it real. :sage:
So then, what is not-illusion love?
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
master of puppets wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:53 pm


So, define what “not an illusion” love is.
Love exists within one’s mind (heart). You need to define what you mean by “illusion”.
Rain also comes and goes. We say that the weather is fickle. Does that mean it is an illusion?

What I mean is, tell me what’s the difference between illusion-love and not-illusion love.

Otherwise, “illusion” is just an abstract term that can mean whatever.
I think illusion love is the next step always. in spirituality there is always a next step that you feel it is there but stay as illusion cause you couldn't grasp. a high level of understanding. we come this earth to make it real. :sage:
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by SkyFox »

master of puppets wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
master of puppets wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm

I think illusion love is the next step always. in spirituality there is always a next step that you feel it is there but stay as illusion cause you couldn't grasp. a high level of understanding. we come this earth to make it real. :sage:
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
You sir are a genius.This is either incomprehensibly deep or just incomprehensive. It's like I'm reading the words of the sages from those Chinese films ; Always full of wisdom that no one can actually understand till the end of the movie when the main character suddenly has an epiphany, especially that last part with the question :rolling:

Too bad we don't have an upvote system, otherwise +1000
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

SkyFox wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:27 am
master of puppets wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
This is either incomprehensibly deep or just incomprehensive. You sir are a genius. It's like I'm reading the words of those sages from Chinese films ; Always full of wisdom that no one can actually comprehend, especially that last part with the question :rolling:

Too bad we don't have an upvote system, otherwise +1000
yes, my philosophy based on bars and my knowledge on kung-fu movies. you can disregard me. 👍

but if you'd ever be think for all those years like me you would become a philosopher.

you know, once one said something we usually don't accept but rather prefer to philosophy it for years..
Last edited by master of puppets on Tue Jun 21, 2022 9:56 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

master of puppets wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
master of puppets wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 6:45 pm

I think illusion love is the next step always. in spirituality there is always a next step that you feel it is there but stay as illusion cause you couldn't grasp. a high level of understanding. we come this earth to make it real. :sage:
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
The doesn't really answer the question.

In response to the original as to whats the difference, I don't know. I don't even know what they meant by illusion I asked and never heard back from them.

What is pure though? What is good? Or bad? I've learned these are just arbitrary distinctions we make up that ultimately carry no real weight. Pure is what we say is pure same with good, so does it really matter.

And to the anger, there is a point. It just feels like losing to let it go though, even though that's not the truth.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

Ardha wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:56 pm
master of puppets wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:56 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:56 am
So then, what is not-illusion love?
I say the practice. as time passes illusion dissolves.
pure mind follows what is pure. pure is good. Buddha is good. unfortunately the story never ends. we individuals just have to settle with buddhahood. eh?

what are you chasing?
The doesn't really answer the question.

In response to the original as to whats the difference, I don't know. I don't even know what they meant by illusion I asked and never heard back from them.

What is pure though? What is good? Or bad? I've learned these are just arbitrary distinctions we make up that ultimately carry no real weight. Pure is what we say is pure same with good, so does it really matter.

And to the anger, there is a point. It just feels like losing to let it go though, even though that's not the truth.
I myself accept (take) the Mahakasyapa (1st zen patriarch) mind as the definition of the good, mind of love, and the pure as well. 1 step back (of the reflection) is buddhahood, and one more step back is the practice.

about anger : a civilized human doesn't get angry. It is still an animal instinct, ı guess.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

Expecting to be loved is often only resulting in pain, while love inside of us, is our welbeing.
Not sure this helps, Tsoknyi Rinpoche gave some good explanations regarding the different ways of "love":
https://www.lionsroar.com/reconnecting- ... -rinpoche/

All the best.
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