Is love an illusion?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
MagnetSoulSP
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Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Something I read that quoted a teaching that sort of got me a little upset, wondering if love is an illusion:
Very much so, you know.

Everything around you is an illusion in fact. For example, if you are one light year away from the earth and you see the earth, you see events from one year ago. So what does that mean? Every event is so unreal that our perception of stuff mattering is almost comical.

One more thing is what love are we talking about here? Is it love towards the immortal stuff like music, science and art? or are we talking boy-girl love here?

First, let me come to the latter part

Human beings are fickle.

It is said in Bhagavad Gita


“canchalam hi manah Krishna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva su-duskaram”

(Translation - Oh Krishna, the mind is fickle, turbulent , obstinate and restless. To control it seems more difficult than controlling a full blown storm)
Arjun mentions a problem that we have all faced at some point in our lives. We just cannot control our mind. One minute, I’m thinking of focussing on work and the next minute, here I am on Quora answering random questions. How many days have you procrastinated stuff? As Arjun mentioned, its easier to control a storm than to control the human brain.

This is the fickle mind that we are dealing with. It is just impossible to create a “real” bond between one such human mind and another….especially when one has choices in choosing another mind - that is, your love towards your mother can be true because , one can have only one mother…thus in fact your love is towards maternity than towards the mind of the mother itself…no one would love their mother if the mother wasn’t kind and loving….would you love your mother if she had harassed you verbally and physically as a kid? No…because, you love the concept of maternity..which is care…and not the human being, that is the mother itself.

Now coming to lovers, a person has more than one choice for another human being as a “lover”. Now he/she categorizes a lot before choosing one ....and that narrows it down to around a million rather than a billion choices. Now can we trust our fickle mind to bond “really” with another such fickle mind? The answer is no, the bond is not real. It is an illusion.
This illusion is created because we want it to be created. As things stand, no “normal” human being will like to admit that deep inside they are lonely. How much ever you claim to love a person, all the person can do is stand by and watch during some of your sufferings. Sure you’ll claim that him/her “being there for you” is a great sign….but no, its not a great sign…its a sign of weakness…if your mind is strong enough, you won’t need anyone to “be there for you”

Popularisation of idiotic things like mocking the guy who eats alone or mocking a guy who is single and forty years old in our sex-minded society is what has led to the popularisation of the concept of love. People want to believe that they have found their true lover….so that they aren’t “forty, single and eating alone”...

To sum it up - Love towards abstract things is ironically real…mainly because abstract things are a perception of one’s own mind…and hence your mind is totally attached to it.

Love towards “real” things is ironically an illusion…mainly because both of your minds are fickle"
Yet there is part of me that thinks this person is missing something or misunderstanding something.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

“Love” as the term as is usually used means a bunch of things. Many of the them lead to a circular experience of suffering, other aspects lead to higher states, this is elucidated pretty well in Pali Literature.

But yes, if your relationship is solely based on fixated romantic love, it is likely to end in tears from a Buddhist perspective.

As far as “illusion” you are too fixated on emptiness, take some basic teachings and try not to obsess so much, I think you are not ready for that.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Riju »

Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Something I read that quoted a teaching that sort of got me a little upset, wondering if love is an illusion...
Sooner or later or a few births later you will experience the FINAL TRUTH that every existence (including emotions like love) that your senses see are an illusion.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Riju wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:26 pm
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Something I read that quoted a teaching that sort of got me a little upset, wondering if love is an illusion...
Sooner or later or a few births later you will experience the FINAL TRUTH that every existence (including emotions like love) that your senses see are an illusion.
What does that mean exactly? When I say I love someone does that mean I am lying about it and I don't know it?
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ayu »

Ardha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:44 am
Riju wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:26 pm
Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Something I read that quoted a teaching that sort of got me a little upset, wondering if love is an illusion...
Sooner or later or a few births later you will experience the FINAL TRUTH that every existence (including emotions like love) that your senses see are an illusion.
What does that mean exactly? When I say I love someone does that mean I am lying about it and I don't know it?
No, it doesn't mean lying.
In order to understand this buddhist concept, discussion won't help at all as the forum's history proves.
Johnny D's advice above (to losen the focus on this most difficult topic) is essential for you here.
Just relax. You're taking the words too literally and therefore exaggerate and distort the things people are trying to explain to you.
Simply relax. There's no harmful idea behind buddhist philosophy, even if you search for it excessively.

You can simply say: 'I don't understand this talk about non-self and not-really-existence.'
Everybody took refuge to this stance before starting real studies, good meditation practice and before finding a teacher who is not only able to explain it correctly but SHOW it to you in real life meetings.

There' s nothing wrong with not understanding in the beginning. But don't argue there must be something bad in buddhist teachings behind the curtain of your misunderstanding.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by narhwal90 »

The Concentration on Sitting Meditation Sutra suggests methods of meditation for various conditions of practitioner; ie if there is a disposition of mind on anger or lust or discursive thoughts, then the sutra suggests methods and focus to mitigate them. I tend to view it as a meditation instruction manual, quite practical.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Shinjin »

Illusion and delusion
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by master of puppets »

Best posture is love :coffee:
it promises a long and healthy life
which in theory is the best of luck.
Last edited by master of puppets on Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Hazel »

All models are false, but some are useful.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Natan »

Ardha wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:33 pm Something I read that quoted a teaching that sort of got me a little upset, wondering if love is an illusion:
Very much so, you know.

Everything around you is an illusion in fact. For example, if you are one light year away from the earth and you see the earth, you see events from one year ago. So what does that mean? Every event is so unreal that our perception of stuff mattering is almost comical.

One more thing is what love are we talking about here? Is it love towards the immortal stuff like music, science and art? or are we talking boy-girl love here?

First, let me come to the latter part

Human beings are fickle.

It is said in Bhagavad Gita


“canchalam hi manah Krishna
pramathi balavad drdham
tasyaham nigraham manye
vayor iva su-duskaram”

(Translation - Oh Krishna, the mind is fickle, turbulent , obstinate and restless. To control it seems more difficult than controlling a full blown storm)
Arjun mentions a problem that we have all faced at some point in our lives. We just cannot control our mind. One minute, I’m thinking of focussing on work and the next minute, here I am on Quora answering random questions. How many days have you procrastinated stuff? As Arjun mentioned, its easier to control a storm than to control the human brain.

This is the fickle mind that we are dealing with. It is just impossible to create a “real” bond between one such human mind and another….especially when one has choices in choosing another mind - that is, your love towards your mother can be true because , one can have only one mother…thus in fact your love is towards maternity than towards the mind of the mother itself…no one would love their mother if the mother wasn’t kind and loving….would you love your mother if she had harassed you verbally and physically as a kid? No…because, you love the concept of maternity..which is care…and not the human being, that is the mother itself.

Now coming to lovers, a person has more than one choice for another human being as a “lover”. Now he/she categorizes a lot before choosing one ....and that narrows it down to around a million rather than a billion choices. Now can we trust our fickle mind to bond “really” with another such fickle mind? The answer is no, the bond is not real. It is an illusion.
This illusion is created because we want it to be created. As things stand, no “normal” human being will like to admit that deep inside they are lonely. How much ever you claim to love a person, all the person can do is stand by and watch during some of your sufferings. Sure you’ll claim that him/her “being there for you” is a great sign….but no, its not a great sign…its a sign of weakness…if your mind is strong enough, you won’t need anyone to “be there for you”

Popularisation of idiotic things like mocking the guy who eats alone or mocking a guy who is single and forty years old in our sex-minded society is what has led to the popularisation of the concept of love. People want to believe that they have found their true lover….so that they aren’t “forty, single and eating alone”...

To sum it up - Love towards abstract things is ironically real…mainly because abstract things are a perception of one’s own mind…and hence your mind is totally attached to it.

Love towards “real” things is ironically an illusion…mainly because both of your minds are fickle"
Yet there is part of me that thinks this person is missing something or misunderstanding something.
Love is an illusion. It's a samsaric mind that results in the deva realms. In Buddhism everything is an illusion. That's the main point of emptiness. Love is not one of the six paramitas. It is not relative Bodhicitta. Commonly Bodhicitta is called compassion and that relative Bodhicitta is compassion. It is not ordinary pity and empathic concern. It is the knowledge that one has which one knows others do not, and knowing their ignorance is easy to dispose but also knowing they won't. So it's only about ignorance of emptiness and the vow to fix that for people somehow, because the consequence is like a universal plague. It's something of a professional attitude, like one Doctors have. It allows one to be impartial.
Last edited by Natan on Thu Apr 14, 2022 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riju
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Riju »

At the age of 16 I loved a girl deeply. She ditched me then but even now at the age of 85 I remember her with happiness. In between thousands of time I have remembered her with happiness.

But when I understood Emptiness and the Lotus sutra. I now know that it was a very harmful incident that has hampered my growth in spirituality. Happiness is OUTFLOW as per Lotus sutra and on the path of Buddhahood all outflows are a wasted energies. The happiness or bitterness for a deep emotional experience is an act of ignorance and loss of huge amount of spiritual energies.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Ayu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:38 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:44 am
Riju wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:26 pm

Sooner or later or a few births later you will experience the FINAL TRUTH that every existence (including emotions like love) that your senses see are an illusion.
What does that mean exactly? When I say I love someone does that mean I am lying about it and I don't know it?
No, it doesn't mean lying.
In order to understand this buddhist concept, discussion won't help at all as the forum's history proves.
Johnny D's advice above (to losen the focus on this most difficult topic) is essential for you here.
Just relax. You're taking the words too literally and therefore exaggerate and distort the things people are trying to explain to you.
Simply relax. There's no harmful idea behind buddhist philosophy, even if you search for it excessively.

You can simply say: 'I don't understand this talk about non-self and not-really-existence.'
Everybody took refuge to this stance before starting real studies, good meditation practice and before finding a teacher who is not only able to explain it correctly but SHOW it to you in real life meetings.

There' s nothing wrong with not understanding in the beginning. But don't argue there must be something bad in buddhist teachings behind the curtain of your misunderstanding.
That's hard to do when everyone else is saying it's an illusion or false, how is someone supposed to interpret that? How else do you respond to a significant part of your life being told it's an illusion, it just makes me question every feeling I have. As though I'm just lying to myself that I love someone or my dogs and really I just love some abstract concept that they're giving me.

That sounds very alienating and harmful, and it didn't help that some articles I read on Buddhism pretty much said the same thing. It feels like maybe there is some harmful ideas behind the philosophy. There's no real way I can not obsess now that I've read it, it's like telling someone don't think about pink elephants.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ayu »

Ardha wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:23 am
Ayu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:38 am
Ardha wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 3:44 am

What does that mean exactly? When I say I love someone does that mean I am lying about it and I don't know it?
No, it doesn't mean lying.
In order to understand this buddhist concept, discussion won't help at all as the forum's history proves.
Johnny D's advice above (to losen the focus on this most difficult topic) is essential for you here.
Just relax. You're taking the words too literally and therefore exaggerate and distort the things people are trying to explain to you.
Simply relax. There's no harmful idea behind buddhist philosophy, even if you search for it excessively.

You can simply say: 'I don't understand this talk about non-self and not-really-existence.'
Everybody took refuge to this stance before starting real studies, good meditation practice and before finding a teacher who is not only able to explain it correctly but SHOW it to you in real life meetings.

There' s nothing wrong with not understanding in the beginning. But don't argue there must be something bad in buddhist teachings behind the curtain of your misunderstanding.
That's hard to do when everyone else is saying it's an illusion or false, how is someone supposed to interpret that? How else do you respond to a significant part of your life being told it's an illusion, it just makes me question every feeling I have. As though I'm just lying to myself that I love someone or my dogs and really I just love some abstract concept that they're giving me.

That sounds very alienating and harmful, and it didn't help that some articles I read on Buddhism pretty much said the same thing. It feels like maybe there is some harmful ideas behind the philosophy. There's no real way I can not obsess now that I've read it, it's like telling someone don't think about pink elephants.
Due to minor language skills and less dharmic education I'm probably not the right person to explain it to you.

All I can hint to is that maybe you misinterpret the term "illusion" in this context.

Illusion is not the same as "not existent". Rather it means neither not-existent nor existent.
This means, in Gelug view (others may disagree) : We do not understand HOW the phenomena exist.

As long as you admit that you have no idea of how things exist and you're not able to see the real moon (, you only see it's reflection in the lake,) then it's not so difficult to retreat to the stance:
I don't understand what they mean with "love is an illusion". Just don't judge it. Leave it.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Ayu wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 9:34 am
Ardha wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:23 am
Ayu wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:38 am

No, it doesn't mean lying.
In order to understand this buddhist concept, discussion won't help at all as the forum's history proves.
Johnny D's advice above (to losen the focus on this most difficult topic) is essential for you here.
Just relax. You're taking the words too literally and therefore exaggerate and distort the things people are trying to explain to you.
Simply relax. There's no harmful idea behind buddhist philosophy, even if you search for it excessively.

You can simply say: 'I don't understand this talk about non-self and not-really-existence.'
Everybody took refuge to this stance before starting real studies, good meditation practice and before finding a teacher who is not only able to explain it correctly but SHOW it to you in real life meetings.

There' s nothing wrong with not understanding in the beginning. But don't argue there must be something bad in buddhist teachings behind the curtain of your misunderstanding.
That's hard to do when everyone else is saying it's an illusion or false, how is someone supposed to interpret that? How else do you respond to a significant part of your life being told it's an illusion, it just makes me question every feeling I have. As though I'm just lying to myself that I love someone or my dogs and really I just love some abstract concept that they're giving me.

That sounds very alienating and harmful, and it didn't help that some articles I read on Buddhism pretty much said the same thing. It feels like maybe there is some harmful ideas behind the philosophy. There's no real way I can not obsess now that I've read it, it's like telling someone don't think about pink elephants.
Due to minor language skills and less dharmic education I'm probably not the right person to explain it to you.

All I can hint to is that maybe you misinterpret the term "illusion" in this context.

Illusion is not the same as "not existent". Rather it means neither not-existent nor existent.
This means, in Gelug view (others may disagree) : We do not understand HOW the phenomena exist.

As long as you admit that you have no idea of how things exist and you're not able to see the real moon (, you only see it's reflection in the lake,) then it's not so difficult to retreat to the stance:
I don't understand what they mean with "love is an illusion". Just don't judge it. Leave it.
It's hard to not judge it because I have the urge to know if it's true or not. It will come up in every instance where I feel love and I'll be reminded of when someone called it an illusion.

In this sense "illusion" means it's not real. Meaning you don't really love your mom the person but what she does for you, maternity and care. Or with a partner you don't really love them either. The way they're saying it speaks to one lying to themselves, that when we say we love someone we are deceiving ourselves. That's something that hurts me a lot and interrupts any such feelings I develop by saying "you don't love the person or your dog, it's X or Y that you like".

I think it is pretty clear what the person means in regards to love being an illusion.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Hazel »

A chair leg is an illusion. You can still stub your toe on it.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Ayu »

It's fundamentaly difficult to understand, because our thought patterns are different.
Giving up judgmental thinking is a very helpful exercise. It helps in so many cases.

You don't have to say, this buddhist idea of illusion is true. That's difficult and you can reach that understanding only by "study, contemplation & meditation". This needs a lot of time until you reach some insight.
Therefore, you cannot find truth by hastily judging and discussing. And this is true in so many other situations in life as well.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by muni »

I was once asked if a dog can really love his owner or that he does so because of receiving food. And then there is that dog sitting on the grave of his lost human, for months and months. Of course we can be quick judge: attachment.

Love is an illusion when it opposes hatred. As long as there are these opposing emotions there is illusion.
However to reject love, loving kindness, what is a means as being one of the four immeasurable, is to reject a powerful method, leading to stop causing suffering for oneself and others.

“The more you are motivated by love, the more fearless and free your action will be.” “Love is the absence of judgment.” “Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries." HH Dalai Lama
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Tao »

Love has many dimensions, romantic love is attachment and suffering

Compassionate buddhist love is not as it has to be without attachment.

For a Bodhisattva love is the force leading to liberate all beings, the leading force to rebirth. Otherwise he will enter parinirvana

Is an Illusion? what do you mean for illusion? It's mind!!! and what is not as the heart sutra says? It's upaya! It's enough!!!
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by Soma999 »

The emptiness of things is different from their non-existence.

Or if you want to believe everything is an illusion, know there are better illusions than others.

The fire is empty of a self (he is composed of elements, is co-dependent), still it is hot. If you burn your hand, the pain will feel very true and not like an illusion at all.
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Re: Is love an illusion?

Post by MagnetSoulSP »

Ayu wrote: Mon Apr 25, 2022 6:44 am It's fundamentaly difficult to understand, because our thought patterns are different.
Giving up judgmental thinking is a very helpful exercise. It helps in so many cases.

You don't have to say, this buddhist idea of illusion is true. That's difficult and you can reach that understanding only by "study, contemplation & meditation". This needs a lot of time until you reach some insight.
Therefore, you cannot find truth by hastily judging and discussing. And this is true in so many other situations in life as well.
I understand what they mean by it in the quote though which is why it bugs me and has me in knots. It means that when I tell someone I love them I don't mean it and it's just some "Thing" that I love about them.

Like in the case they use with the mother, you don't love your mom because if she was mean you wouldn't. You love care and maternity, aka what is done to you.
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