Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Kai lord
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Kai lord »

Terma wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 3:31 pm
Konchog1 wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:04 pm
How does this work for people who switch traditions? I know a few zen teachers who talk about how they were formerly Vajrayana practitioners and I would guess they have some practice commitments? Maybe they haven't abandoned them and do it in private, but I feel it could be hard balancing the two practices.
Practice commitments are voluntary. And if you find you don't really gel with a practice, there is no reason to continue with it. Of course, when teachers give important cycles, they want people to take them seriously. But there is actually no _samaya_ to do this or that practice. These commitments are given to discourage the idly curious.
Really? I understand the notion that we are all free to do what we please, but when your guru gives a practice commitment and one just decides to disregard it, does that not go against your guru's wishes?

Pretty slippery slope with this one I think.
Over the years, I have seen different people coming out with various creative ways to deal with practice commitments. For example, some will discuss with their gurus privately and somehow manage to negotiate their way out of a practice commitment.

Some gurus allow their students to maintain their samaya by reciting a bare minimum of mantras even when they are sick but commented how doing that does not advance one's path at all and insist on daily practices being the key to move forwards in their path towards Buddhahood.

Finally there are others who did the concise version (to save time) instead of middle length or elaborate sadhanas which are actually the ones that beginners should practice. (concise for the pros who know what is going on)
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PeterC
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by PeterC »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:52 pm For an extreme example, imagine how many Empowerments Jamgon Kongtrul or Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo received. Do you think they did all the practices that they received, every single day? That would be impossible.
Dilgo Khyentse R used to spend several hours each day running through a large number of sadhanas, changing males and implements periodically as needed. A lineage holder may have obligations to maintain practices that a regular practitioner would not.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Sādhaka »

Kai lord wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:14 pmOver the years, I have seen different people coming out with various creative ways to deal with practice commitments. For example, some will discuss with their gurus privately and somehow manage to negotiate their way out of a practice commitment.

Some gurus allow their students to maintain their samaya by reciting a bare minimum of mantras even when they are sick but commented how doing that does not advance one's path at all and insist on daily practices being the key to move forwards in their path towards Buddhahood.

Finally there are others who did the concise version (to save time) instead of middle length or elaborate sadhanas which are actually the ones that beginners should practice. (concise for the pros who know what is going on)

No one should have to try to ‘negotiate’ their way out of anything.

The point is, that some people have received many Empowerments to where it would be impossible to do all the practices everyday.

Now you might call such individuals musk deer hunters; but if said individuals have a genuine interest in the Teachers and Teachings they want to receive, and they are keeping their general Highest Yoga Tantra and/or Dzogchen Samayas, then you couldn’t call them deer musk hunters. Unless you want to call Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo, for example, a musk deer hunter; which would be patently absurd.

Although let me say that yes, it would be better for most people to find a Lineage and practice to stick to and achieve something, rather than spend their entire life trying to collect Empowerments.

(Also see the last two posts on the previous page of this thread)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Sādhaka »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:26 pmA lineage holder may have obligations to maintain practices that a regular practitioner would not.

Well sure, if they’re going to be transmitting these practices then they of course should be familiar with them, and I would assume even manifest some signs of accomplishment in the said practices.

That doesn’t mean that they would be expected to do every single practice that they’ve received, if there literally aren’t enough hours in the day to practice them all.
Malcolm
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:26 pm
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:52 pm For an extreme example, imagine how many Empowerments Jamgon Kongtrul or Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo received. Do you think they did all the practices that they received, every single day? That would be impossible.
Dilgo Khyentse R used to spend several hours each day running through a large number of sadhanas, changing males and implements periodically as needed. A lineage holder may have obligations to maintain practices that a regular practitioner would not.
ChNN was also a lineage holder, in the classic sense of the term, like DKR, but he never spent his time this way. They were both Dzogchenpas, the difference, as far as I can tell, is personal inclination.
Kai lord
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Kai lord »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:30 pm
Kai lord wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:14 pmOver the years, I have seen different people coming out with various creative ways to deal with practice commitments. For example, some will discuss with their gurus privately and somehow manage to negotiate their way out of a practice commitment.

Some gurus allow their students to maintain their samaya by reciting a bare minimum of mantras even when they are sick but commented how doing that does not advance one's path at all and insist on daily practices being the key to move forwards in their path towards Buddhahood.

Finally there are others who did the concise version (to save time) instead of middle length or elaborate sadhanas which are actually the ones that beginners should practice. (concise for the pros who know what is going on)

No one should have to try to ‘negotiate’ their way out of anything.

The point is, that some people have received many Empowerments to where it would be impossible to do all the practices everyday.
That is one extreme to be avoided. Many practices does overlap, there is only so many times that one can repeat refuge prayers, Vajrasattva, etc.

Doing one obstacle clearing yidam practice and another for Dharma protectors per day, etc, is enough. There is no point to do them multiple times with different lineages. I think you get my point.

Practitioners must also consider circumstances where they are sick and are unable to do practices.

On the other hand, we must avoid another extreme that many beginners take, like viewing practice commitments as "burdens" and undesirable.
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Life is like a show, either you laugh or cry!
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Terma
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Re: Hevajra or Chakrsamvara Empowerements in 2022

Post by Terma »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:17 pm On the other hand, I am Dzogchen practitioner of the tradition of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, and so I follow his directions.
This is the real point I think.

I really feel that this is what it comes down to is finding a guru which one can place their trust and faith in, and then follow their instructions.

I don't think it works well for people to do otherwise.
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