Innate sense of self and gender identity

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droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

boda wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:25 pm
droogiefret wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:19 pm Gender Identity Ideology assumes that we all, everyone of us, have a deeply felt innate sense of our own gender. But I don't - I am confident that my own sense of self is devoid of gender. And this is not because I am 'CIS male' - if I were to wake tomorrow with a female body I am pretty certain my sense of self would be unchanged.

So, what is going on here? Do some people have a Gender Identity and some don't? I am coming around to the view that it is a personal constructed reality - that is, a Gender Identity can be real for you if you have that worldview - but doesn't exist if you don't.
Sexual identity, gender identity, or a general sense of self can be distinguished. I would think a navel-gazing Buddhist might be more inclined than most to such granularity about self-hood and identity. Anyway, I think Gender Identity Theory holds that gender is largely a social construct, and that standpoint trumps scientific or 'objective' knowledge. Not far off from where you're at, it seems.
My understanding of the theory is that gender is a social construct but gender identity is innate from a very early age (if not from birth).
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:31 am
boda wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:25 pm
droogiefret wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:19 pm Gender Identity Ideology assumes that we all, everyone of us, have a deeply felt innate sense of our own gender. But I don't - I am confident that my own sense of self is devoid of gender. And this is not because I am 'CIS male' - if I were to wake tomorrow with a female body I am pretty certain my sense of self would be unchanged.

So, what is going on here? Do some people have a Gender Identity and some don't? I am coming around to the view that it is a personal constructed reality - that is, a Gender Identity can be real for you if you have that worldview - but doesn't exist if you don't.
Sexual identity, gender identity, or a general sense of self can be distinguished. I would think a navel-gazing Buddhist might be more inclined than most to such granularity about self-hood and identity. Anyway, I think Gender Identity Theory holds that gender is largely a social construct, and that standpoint trumps scientific or 'objective' knowledge. Not far off from where you're at, it seems.
My understanding of the theory is that gender is a social construct but gender identity is innate from a very early age (if not from birth).
That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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PeterC
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PeterC »

Is there any reason someone needs to have an opinion on these issues - beyond the basic position that if someone wants to do, say or think something that doesn’t harm themselves or anyone else, that we shouldn’t really care?
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Giovanni »

KathyLauren wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:42 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:49 am As this discussion is happening on a Forum dedicated to Dharma, I wonder whether any identification with gender or sexuality isn’t eventually to be transcended?
My teachers say that Realization does not happen through accumulation but by a radical view of Shunyata,
True, no doubt. But you have to be careful with offering that as advice. In some circumstances, it could be like telling a starving man that he eventually needs to transcend hunger and his attachment to food. The truth of the statement needs to be tempered with compassion.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
It’s not advice. It’s a statement of things as they are according to a Dharma teacher I have faith in.
The analogy with food is only partially appropriate. As long as we have these “precious human bodies” we will need food.
Many people live a celibate life and a life which deemphasises gender identity.
Of course wisdom and compassion are the two wings that enable the bird to fly.
But sometimes a gentle reminder that what preoccupies us may not be what predisposes to Awakening might be highly compassionate.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Giovanni wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:49 am
KathyLauren wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:42 pm
Giovanni wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:49 am As this discussion is happening on a Forum dedicated to Dharma, I wonder whether any identification with gender or sexuality isn’t eventually to be transcended?
My teachers say that Realization does not happen through accumulation but by a radical view of Shunyata,
True, no doubt. But you have to be careful with offering that as advice. In some circumstances, it could be like telling a starving man that he eventually needs to transcend hunger and his attachment to food. The truth of the statement needs to be tempered with compassion.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
It’s not advice. It’s a statement of things as they are according to a Dharma teacher I have faith in.
The analogy with food is only partially appropriate. As long as we have these “precious human bodies” we will need food.
Many people live a celibate life and a life which deemphasises gender identity.
Of course wisdom and compassion are the two wings that enable the bird to fly.
But sometimes a gentle reminder that what preoccupies us may not be what predisposes to Awakening might be highly compassionate.
...and other times?

:coffee:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

PeterC wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:23 am Is there any reason someone needs to have an opinion on these issues - beyond the basic position that if someone wants to do, say or think something that doesn’t harm themselves or anyone else, that we shouldn’t really care?
I think this is a good approach.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 am
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:31 am
boda wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:25 pm

Sexual identity, gender identity, or a general sense of self can be distinguished. I would think a navel-gazing Buddhist might be more inclined than most to such granularity about self-hood and identity. Anyway, I think Gender Identity Theory holds that gender is largely a social construct, and that standpoint trumps scientific or 'objective' knowledge. Not far off from where you're at, it seems.
My understanding of the theory is that gender is a social construct but gender identity is innate from a very early age (if not from birth).
That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
There is an argument that that the various aspects are deliberately difficult to understand as a cohesive whole. Something to do with post-modernism I think - though I am not a philosophy expert.

I am not a gender identity ideology fan. I did, however, want people's opinions on the gender identity aspect. Were people's sense of self gendered and was this true for everyone? I am now fairly confident that the sense of self is not necessarily gendered - it could be and clearly is for some.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Giovanni »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:46 am
Giovanni wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 6:49 am
KathyLauren wrote: Mon Apr 11, 2022 8:42 pm

True, no doubt. But you have to be careful with offering that as advice. In some circumstances, it could be like telling a starving man that he eventually needs to transcend hunger and his attachment to food. The truth of the statement needs to be tempered with compassion.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
It’s not advice. It’s a statement of things as they are according to a Dharma teacher I have faith in.
The analogy with food is only partially appropriate. As long as we have these “precious human bodies” we will need food.
Many people live a celibate life and a life which deemphasises gender identity.
Of course wisdom and compassion are the two wings that enable the bird to fly.
But sometimes a gentle reminder that what preoccupies us may not be what predisposes to Awakening might be highly compassionate.
...and other times?

:coffee:
Kim
I don’t see how a gentle reminder could be UNcompassionate.
In terms of the Vajrayana these things are classified as mundane..The display that Samsara takes in our particular case.
Which doesn’t mean that they unimportant to the person involved. Or that we shouldn’t be sensitive.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by KathyLauren »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 am That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
"Gender", strictly speaking, is an abstract concept. It refers to the spectrum that has male at one end, female at the other, and intermediate states in the middle. The word is often sloppily used to mean other things, gender identity in particular, but properly used, it refers to the abstraction.

"Gender identity" refers to a person's sense of where they fit on that spectrum. It is more than a thought: it is biologically determined by structures in the brain.

While we are on the subject of definitions, "sex", a.k.a. "biological sex" just refers to the gender of the genitals.

A great many body parts are gendered. In most cases, those genders are consistent with one another. In some cases, they are not.

Note that this has nothing to do with any ideology. The definition of gender is a grammatical / semantic one. The others are biological. Making it all about ideologies is a tactic intended to obfuscate, not to enlighten.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yes, that is a semantic distinction. I confess a lot of these notions strike me as more cultural/philosophical than scientific. I do definitely agree that one not need understand or agree with any theory in particular to support trans rights though.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Malcolm »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am
I am not a gender identity ideology fan. I did, however, want people's opinions on the gender identity aspect. Were people's sense of self gendered and was this true for everyone? I am now fairly confident that the sense of self is not necessarily gendered - it could be and clearly is for some.
Gender is an illusion, albeit, a powerful one:

Śāriputra: Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?

Goddess: Although I have sought my “female state” for these twelve years, I have not yet found it. Reverend Śāriputra, if a magician were to incarnate a woman by magic, would you ask her, “What prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?”

Śāriputra: No! Such a woman would not really exist, so what would there be to transform?

Goddess: Just so, reverend Śāriputra, all things do not really exist. Now, would you think, “What prevents one whose nature is that of a magical incarnation from transforming herself out of her female state?”

Thereupon, the goddess employed her magical power to cause the elder Śāriputra to appear in her form and to cause herself to appear in his form. Then the goddess, transformed into Śāriputra, said to Śāriputra, transformed into a goddess, “Reverend Śāriputra, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?”

And Śāriputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, “I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!”

The goddess continued, “If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, ‘In all things, there is neither male nor female.’ ”

Then, the goddess released her magical power and each returned to his ordinary form. She then said to him, “Reverend Śāriputra, what have you done with your female form?”


https://84000.co/doc/vimalakirti/Vimala ... 170724.pdf
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:15 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 am That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
"Gender", strictly speaking, is an abstract concept. It refers to the spectrum that has male at one end, female at the other, and intermediate states in the middle. The word is often sloppily used to mean other things, gender identity in particular, but properly used, it refers to the abstraction.

"Gender identity" refers to a person's sense of where they fit on that spectrum. It is more than a thought: it is biologically determined by structures in the brain.

While we are on the subject of definitions, "sex", a.k.a. "biological sex" just refers to the gender of the genitals.

A great many body parts are gendered. In most cases, those genders are consistent with one another. In some cases, they are not.

Note that this has nothing to do with any ideology. The definition of gender is a grammatical / semantic one. The others are biological. Making it all about ideologies is a tactic intended to obfuscate, not to enlighten.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I detect no tactics on this thread - nor any attempts to obfuscate. You do?
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justsit
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by justsit »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:56 pm Yes, that is a semantic distinction. I confess a lot of these notions strike me as more cultural/philosophical than scientific. I do definitely agree that one not need understand or agree with any theory in particular to support trans rights though.
You might find this study interesting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/. The subject of brain chemistry related to gender identification has attracted quite a lot of interest in the past ten years or so, and more and more data appears to confirm differences in male and female brains structure and function. Lots more research is needed before solid conclusions can be reached, but right now it is pointing at the possibility of a physiological basis for transgender expression.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by KathyLauren »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:15 pm
I detect no tactics on this thread - nor any attempts to obfuscate. You do?
The fact that everyone wants to talk about "gender ideology" and no one is interested in understanding the experience of gender is in itself obfuscating. Gender ideology is more a creation of its opponents than of its alleged adherents.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:10 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am
I am not a gender identity ideology fan. I did, however, want people's opinions on the gender identity aspect. Were people's sense of self gendered and was this true for everyone? I am now fairly confident that the sense of self is not necessarily gendered - it could be and clearly is for some.
Gender is an illusion, albeit, a powerful one:

Śāriputra: Goddess, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?

Goddess: Although I have sought my “female state” for these twelve years, I have not yet found it. Reverend Śāriputra, if a magician were to incarnate a woman by magic, would you ask her, “What prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?”

Śāriputra: No! Such a woman would not really exist, so what would there be to transform?

Goddess: Just so, reverend Śāriputra, all things do not really exist. Now, would you think, “What prevents one whose nature is that of a magical incarnation from transforming herself out of her female state?”

Thereupon, the goddess employed her magical power to cause the elder Śāriputra to appear in her form and to cause herself to appear in his form. Then the goddess, transformed into Śāriputra, said to Śāriputra, transformed into a goddess, “Reverend Śāriputra, what prevents you from transforming yourself out of your female state?”

And Śāriputra, transformed into the goddess, replied, “I no longer appear in the form of a male! My body has changed into the body of a woman! I do not know what to transform!”

The goddess continued, “If the elder could again change out of the female state, then all women could also change out of their female states. All women appear in the form of women in just the same way as the elder appears in the form of a woman. While they are not women in reality, they appear in the form of women. With this in mind, the Buddha said, ‘In all things, there is neither male nor female.’ ”

Then, the goddess released her magical power and each returned to his ordinary form. She then said to him, “Reverend Śāriputra, what have you done with your female form?”


https://84000.co/doc/vimalakirti/Vimala ... 170724.pdf
I recently read the personal account of a cross dresser who found that their sexual orientation changed as they changed their appearance. They were always 'straight' in regard to stereotypical gender appearance. There are clearly illusions within illusions - too many to navigate.

Thank you for making me think and laugh at myself in equal measure.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Malcolm »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:41 pm
I recently read the personal account of a cross dresser who found that their sexual orientation changed as they changed their appearance.
I have heard of gay men who became transwomen suddenly finding themselves attracted to cisgendered women, and vice versa.

Human beings are strange.
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:29 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:15 pm
I detect no tactics on this thread - nor any attempts to obfuscate. You do?
The fact that everyone wants to talk about "gender ideology" and no one is interested in understanding the experience of gender is in itself obfuscating. Gender ideology is more a creation of its opponents than of its alleged adherents.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
Oh I see.

Well personally I'm coming at this from a Samatha point of view - what do I become aware of as I watch. It wouldn't seem profitable to deliberately try to induce a sense of gender - just to see what that feels like.

On your other point, I had no idea that 'Gender Identity Ideology' was a loaded term. If that's the case I'll try not to use it. I am happy to disagree - but it is never my intention to deliberately offend.
Malcolm
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Malcolm »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:58 pm On your other point, I had no idea that 'Gender Identity Ideology' was a loaded term.
We live in the age of weapons, all terms are locked and loaded.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Shinjin »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:45 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:41 pm
I recently read the personal account of a cross dresser who found that their sexual orientation changed as they changed their appearance.
I have heard of gay men who became transwomen suddenly finding themselves attracted to cisgendered women, and vice versa.

Human beings are strange.
Not strange. That sounds like a beautiful story.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by boda »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 am
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 1:31 am

My understanding of the theory is that gender is a social construct but gender identity is innate from a very early age (if not from birth).
That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
There is an argument that that the various aspects are deliberately difficult to understand as a cohesive whole. Something to do with post-modernism I think - though I am not a philosophy expert.
Rather it seeks to destabilize categories like gender in order to undermine the oppressive status quo (straight white male). Based on postmodernism but not strictly postmodern because no "ideology" can be postmodern.
I am not a gender identity ideology fan.
You just said that you don't understand it, yet you're not a fan?
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