Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 10:21 pm And what I was getting at is that maybe a person is identifying with concepts (which may or may not simply be social stereotypes), or whether what a person is experiencing is really kind of beyond “identity” altogether, as in the example of being ill, or when you stub your toe, or even something more on the positive side, like feeling extremely happy. In that situation, you really feel it in you, and it’s not about comparing how you feel happy with how society defines feeling happy.
And coming back to the topic du jour, the experience of gender "identity" is in the latter category, something that you really feel, that is not about comparing to society's definitions.

That being said, saying anything about it requires the use of concepts and society's definitions. That perhaps is where people get the idea that the experience is a social construct. The words, no doubt, are social constructs, but the experience is not.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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That still doesn’t track for me with someone who feels they are a different gender from day to day. I’m a little skeptical about the existing evidence for -that- as being a biological reality, I’d have to look deeper into that, if you know of science to look at. I do recognize of course it’s something people do, and should be able to do of course.

However, I think with something like that (changing genders regularly) we hit a kind of hard limit of cultural practicality where a lot of people simply won’t “get” the practice of cycling different names or pronouns. I realize there are some historical analogs of course.

Anyway we’ve clarified some stuff here and I am interested in just reading more science, if you have some lay-approachable sources Kathy.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:45 am That still doesn’t track for me with someone who feels they are a different gender from day to day. I’m a little skeptical about the existing evidence for -that- as being a biological reality, I’d have to look deeper into that, if you know of science to look at. I do recognize of course it’s something people do, and should be able to do of course.

However, I think with something like that (changing genders regularly) we hit a kind of hard limit of cultural practicality where a lot of people simply won’t “get” the practice of cycling different names or pronouns. I realize there are some historical analogs of course.

Anyway we’ve clarified some stuff here and I am interested in just reading more science, if you have some lay-approachable sources Kathy.
It appears you didn't read my earlier post that addressed this exact point:
KathyLauren wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:48 pm I don't fully understand gender-fluid or other non-binary states myself. What I do understand, from talking to gender-fluid people, is that their gender identity does not change: they are gender-fluid. That is their gender identity, and it is constant. What changes day to day is their gender expression, and in some cases their gender role.
The biology does not change from day to day. There are a number of ways in which the biology could code for "non-binary", which could manifest as a changeable presentation.

A person of medium stature might, some days, feel tall and, on other days, feel short. It might depend on any number of factors, such as the environment, or the people they are with. Yet tallness and shortness and the spectrum in between are biological realities. The same goes for gender identity.

As for cultural practicality, people can learn. You would think that the extreme limit of cultural practicality might be the military. Yet the bigender person I mentioned on that previous post is a serving member of the military. On days when they wish to present as female, they wear the proper female uniform, and on days when they wish to present male, they wear the proper male uniform. They are addressed as "ma'am" or "sir", depending on their presentation. If the military can adapt, so can the general public. It is not like any of this is new.

I will see if I can find a few links to the science. I don't know how lay-accessible it will be, since it is mostly current research, but I'll do what I can. It won't be until later in the day, though.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:21 pm
As for cultural practicality, people can learn. You would think that the extreme limit of cultural practicality might be the military. Yet the bigender person I mentioned on that previous post is a serving member of the military. On days when they wish to present as female, they wear the proper female uniform, and on days when they wish to present male, they wear the proper male uniform. They are addressed as "ma'am" or "sir", depending on their presentation. If the military can adapt, so can the general public. It is not like any of this is new.
So, how would this work (hypothetically) in a culture or environment where people did not wear clothes? If humans had never put clothes on, or if mens and womens clothes were identical (China, 1950s & 1960s) how would one “present”?

Does it all fall apart without external supports? Would it just be really frustrating?

Am I a biological male dressed as a male, or am I a biological male dressed like a biological female wishing to present as male?

So many questions!
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

There's evidence that interpersonally mediated factors influence the brain — for example, there's the field of interpersonal neurobiology that studies the interaction between attachment/theory of mind and the physical correlates of psyche. There are also concepts like embodied cognition that could become relevant for gender research, if scientists bothered to look into these perspectives with an interdisciplinary POV. A stronger gender theory would develop if the idea of gender were reworked as relational/interpersonal rather than purely societal. Currently, the rhetoric has collapsed into the competition between biology and society. Gender theory could benefit from looking into process thought, the idea of systems, the idea of thesis/antithesis/synthesis, and the concept of emergent properties, to name a few areas for revision.

Currently, as a cisgender gay man I see myself in relation to gender rhetoric through a theory closer to symbolic interactionism than, like, post-structuralism or social constructionism. "Social construct" is an individualistic category for gender whereas "symbolic interaction" situates the person in a system. I acknowledge that my gender, grouped with that of others, is symbolically important for the ideological push for trans positivity. However, I am only cisgender male in relation to other people's categorizations. I didn't really get to decide that my sense of self involves being cis — which is to say that my gender is defined as "non-transness." There is likely to be diverse gender expression in the cisgender grouping even without core elements of trans identity, like dysphoria.

So, I've pointed out two dichotomous elements of this rhetoric, so far: biology vs. society, and [what I'll refer to as] cis-dom vs. transness.

I feel the politics of gender is currently "make the private sphere public because the personal is political." So, to maintain coherence movements rely on theories that relate to societal ways of being, rather than ones that preserve a specifically interpersonal/relational focus. Having an interpersonal notion of gender, in my life, better captures the expression-interpretation dynamic at play in what I experience.

With current events being what they are, if there is one public issue relating to gender that concerns me most it is the right to privacy for individuals and families seeking gender-focused healthcare. There's a way in which the imbalance in the direction of a purely societal or societal-biologistic gender theory undermines core priorities for people whose genders differ from the birth certificate. I feel that there's still work to do to release habits of mind from the oppressive framework itself. Of course, the right wing will be reactionary regardless of the specific ideals in play. On the other hand, scientists studying this material would do well to construct variables, for example, with an eye to the social and human sciences.
Last edited by Damchö_Dorje on Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:27 pm So, how would this work (hypothetically) in a culture or environment where people did not wear clothes? If humans had never put clothes on, or if mens and womens clothes were identical (China, 1950s & 1960s) how would one “present”?
Does it all fall apart without external supports? Would it just be really frustrating?
Transgender people have existed for a very long time; they had to operate within the constraints of their era and culture. In clothesless (hypothetical) societies they would likely use gender indicators typical of their time - hair styles, jewelry, body paint, etc. Early depictions of trans people go back as far as 4500 years ago (per wiki), and those are the kinds of expressions we see. Before the Christians showed up, Native Americans had 5 genders, and a long tradition of Two Spirit people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history. People managed within the constraints of their time and place; the "external support" would come from acceptance by others like themselves and within the larger communities. No doubt some places were more accepting than others.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:21 pm I will see if I can find a few links to the science. I don't know how lay-accessible it will be, since it is mostly current research, but I'll do what I can. It won't be until later in the day, though.
Here is some light reading:

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/1 ... 010-113654

https://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOANATJ-2-37

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1494

https://www.transgenderpulse.com/forums ... db92a57f7

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:57 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:21 pm I will see if I can find a few links to the science. I don't know how lay-accessible it will be, since it is mostly current research, but I'll do what I can. It won't be until later in the day, though.
Here is some light reading:

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/1 ... 010-113654

https://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOANATJ-2-37

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1494

https://www.transgenderpulse.com/forums ... db92a57f7

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I think your last link has limited permissions - the others all work for me.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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droogiefret wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:51 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:57 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 12:21 pm I will see if I can find a few links to the science. I don't know how lay-accessible it will be, since it is mostly current research, but I'll do what I can. It won't be until later in the day, though.
Here is some light reading:

https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/1 ... 010-113654

https://benthamopen.com/ABSTRACT/TOANATJ-2-37

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn1494

https://www.transgenderpulse.com/forums ... db92a57f7

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I think your last link has limited permissions - the others all work for me.
Sorry about that. I didn't realize it had been copied from wherever it came from to a private site. It was a good article. I'll see if I can find it in a more accessible place.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Thanks Kathy, I will look at these.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:09 am
droogiefret wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:51 pm
I think your last link has limited permissions - the others all work for me.
Sorry about that. I didn't realize it had been copied from wherever it came from to a private site. It was a good article. I'll see if I can find it in a more accessible place.

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That's kind - thank you.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:45 am However, I think with something like that (changing genders regularly) we hit a kind of hard limit of cultural practicality where a lot of people simply won’t “get” the practice of cycling different names or pronouns. I realize there are some historical analogs of course.
That’s my issue with this whole area - it’s simply not realistic to expect the vast majority of people to absorb a bewilderingly complex vocabulary and philosophical system, and change the way they speak and interact with others, for a very small minority. It’s not that they’re not willing, it’s just that most people have other things to spend their time and energy on. Unless they’re republicans from Arizona, most people are generally willing to address people in whatever way makes them most comfortable. But you can’t expect them to understand modern gender studies ex ante, at least not unless it’s radically simplified. I find reading mahamadhyamaka considerably easier than reading some of the links posted on this thread.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 1:45 am However, I think with something like that (changing genders regularly) we hit a kind of hard limit of cultural practicality where a lot of people simply won’t “get” the practice of cycling different names or pronouns. I realize there are some historical analogs of course.
That’s my issue with this whole area - it’s simply not realistic to expect the vast majority of people to absorb a bewilderingly complex vocabulary and philosophical system, and change the way they speak and interact with others, for a very small minority. It’s not that they’re not willing, it’s just that most people have other things to spend their time and energy on. Unless they’re republicans from Arizona, most people are generally willing to address people in whatever way makes them most comfortable. But you can’t expect them to understand modern gender studies ex ante, at least not unless it’s radically simplified. I find reading mahamadhyamaka considerably easier than reading some of the links posted on this thread.
Agreed. We can encourage, but we can't expect.

On the other hand, it's a learning curve, for the whole of society, and it's very similar to the learning curves we've seen for women's rights, gay rights, climate change, recycling, nuclear non-proliferation, tobacco, the death penalty, etc. Which is to say that progress has been slow and patchy but we've come a really long way in the lifetimes of people still very active in society. Yes, Boomers, I'm talking about you.

So: We can encourage, but we can't yet expect.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 7:50 am That’s my issue with this whole area - it’s simply not realistic to expect the vast majority of people to absorb a bewilderingly complex vocabulary and philosophical system, and change the way they speak and interact with others, for a very small minority. It’s not that they’re not willing, it’s just that most people have other things to spend their time and energy on. Unless they’re republicans from Arizona, most people are generally willing to address people in whatever way makes them most comfortable. But you can’t expect them to understand modern gender studies ex ante, at least not unless it’s radically simplified. I find reading mahamadhyamaka considerably easier than reading some of the links posted on this thread.
What is bewildering is why those who don't understand want to make it harder to understand. You make it into something complicated then wail, "Oh, why is it so complicated?" Don't make it into a "philosophical system". It isn't one. Don't make it into "gender studies". It doesn't have to be an academic subject. If the scientific studies are hard to read, don't read them. Just know that they exist and that we exist.

Our "agenda" is really, really simple: Treat us like human beings. If people address us in a way that makes us comfortable, that's it. That is all we ask. It is the nay-sayers, the ones who would rather make us uncomfortable, the ones who would rather we went away, who are pretending that it is all so complicated. It isn't.

My neighbours here are exemplars. They are farmers and fishermen, plus the odd hillbilly. Not an academic among them. They don't make it complicated. As far as they are concerned, Kathy is a nice, quiet person who minds her own business and helps out when she can. So they are nice to me. Why wrap that up in ideologies and philosophical systems? What is there to understand? They already know to be nice to people.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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:good:

:group:

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:47 pm What is bewildering is why those who don't understand want to make it harder to understand.
I don't make it into anything. I'm not sure what "it" is. But you can't possibly claim that things like this are easy to understand:
Currently, as a cisgender gay man I see myself in relation to gender rhetoric through a theory closer to symbolic interactionism than, like, post-structuralism or social constructionism. "Social construct" is an individualistic category for gender whereas "symbolic interaction" situates the person in a system. I acknowledge that my gender, grouped with that of others, is symbolically important for the ideological push for trans positivity. However, I am only cisgender male in relation to other people's categorizations. I didn't really get to decide that my sense of self involves being cis — which is to say that my gender is defined as "non-transness." There is likely to be diverse gender expression in the cisgender grouping even without core elements of trans identity, like dysphoria.
Or perhaps you're a lot cleverer than I am. That would also be a valid explanation.
You make it into something complicated then wail, "Oh, why is it so complicated?" Don't make it into a "philosophical system". It isn't one. Don't make it into "gender studies". It doesn't have to be an academic subject. If the scientific studies are hard to read, don't read them. Just know that they exist and that we exist.
See above.
Our "agenda" is really, really simple: Treat us like human beings. If people address us in a way that makes us comfortable, that's it. That is all we ask. It is the nay-sayers, the ones who would rather make us uncomfortable, the ones who would rather we went away, who are pretending that it is all so complicated. It isn't.
I didn't use the word "agenda". And where have I said that I have a problem with treating people like human beings?
My neighbours here are exemplars. They are farmers and fishermen, plus the odd hillbilly. Not an academic among them. They don't make it complicated. As far as they are concerned, Kathy is a nice, quiet person who minds her own business and helps out when she can. So they are nice to me. Why wrap that up in ideologies and philosophical systems? What is there to understand? They already know to be nice to people.
They would probably feel very confused by reading this thread, then.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Kim O'Hara wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 11:49 am On the other hand, it's a learning curve, for the whole of society, and it's very similar to the learning curves we've seen for women's rights, gay rights, climate change, recycling, nuclear non-proliferation, tobacco, the death penalty, etc. Which is to say that progress has been slow and patchy but we've come a really long way in the lifetimes of people still very active in society. Yes, Boomers, I'm talking about you.
This is a good comparison. Some of those things are very simple. Women's rights, gay rights, both very straightforward. Tobacco gives you cancer, also very simple. Death penalty doesn't deter people from crimes and often courts kill the wrong people - requires a bit more understanding of the data, but not complicated. Non-proliferation is a little more complex and really requires quite a lot of knowledge to really understand. Recycling and climate change are both very complicated and technical topics that most people will not understand except at a very superficial level.

There is probably little correlation between something being important and/or morally unambiguous, and it being easy to understand.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:09 pmBut you can't possibly claim that things like this are easy to understand:
Currently, as a cisgender gay man I see myself in relation to gender rhetoric through a theory closer to symbolic interactionism than, like, post-structuralism or social constructionism. "Social construct" is an individualistic category for gender whereas "symbolic interaction" situates the person in a system. I acknowledge that my gender, grouped with that of others, is symbolically important for the ideological push for trans positivity. However, I am only cisgender male in relation to other people's categorizations. I didn't really get to decide that my sense of self involves being cis — which is to say that my gender is defined as "non-transness." There is likely to be diverse gender expression in the cisgender grouping even without core elements of trans identity, like dysphoria.
Or perhaps you're a lot cleverer than I am. That would also be a valid explanation.
No, that post read as gobbledygook, and so I ignored it. Someone trying to make things complicated.
I didn't use the word "agenda". And where have I said that I have a problem with treating people like human beings?
I wasn't accusing you. Sorry if it appeared that I was.
My neighbours here are exemplars. They are farmers and fishermen, plus the odd hillbilly. Not an academic among them. They don't make it complicated. As far as they are concerned, Kathy is a nice, quiet person who minds her own business and helps out when she can. So they are nice to me. Why wrap that up in ideologies and philosophical systems? What is there to understand? They already know to be nice to people.
They would probably feel very confused by reading this thread, then.
Probably. But they have no reason to read it. They already know what they need to understand and how to behave.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PeterC »

KathyLauren wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:48 pm
PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:09 pm
My neighbours here are exemplars. They are farmers and fishermen, plus the odd hillbilly. Not an academic among them. They don't make it complicated. As far as they are concerned, Kathy is a nice, quiet person who minds her own business and helps out when she can. So they are nice to me. Why wrap that up in ideologies and philosophical systems? What is there to understand? They already know to be nice to people.
They would probably feel very confused by reading this thread, then.
Probably. But they have no reason to read it. They already know what they need to understand and how to behave.
But here we are, discussing this thread, which unquestionably does exist, and which contains quite a lot of the intellectual complexity that I was saying to JD that I disliked. You cannot claim that it is I who “make[s] it into something complicated then wail[s], "Oh, why is it so complicated?" ”.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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The percentage of persons who identify as transgender in the US is around 0.6% (vs. those who identify as LGBT+, 4.5%). The gender discussions that get the most media attention typically originate either in the halls of academe and often have little relation to daily life, or from controversial social situations. Most Americans get their info from TV or social media, not from primary sources, and I think there is quite a bit of confusion directly related to the increasingly strident media frenzy. The language is constantly evolving and can cause miscommunication, laws regarding gender are being debated left and right, people freak out over bathrooms because they have no clue what transgender actually means, etc. etc. - the topic has become a political flash point and is being totally manipulated to meet political agendas.

On the ground, the trans people I know just want to be treated with respect, addressed by the pronoun of their choice, and not misgendered. Most of us only want to go about our daily lives like everyone else, not as soldiers in some type of gender wars or spokespersons for some movement. Yes, there are some trans people who are very politicized and very vocal and very visible, but in my experience those are the exception, not the rule.
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