Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Damchö_Dorje
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Damchö_Dorje »

PeterC wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 3:09 pmI don't make it into anything. I'm not sure what "it" is. But you can't possibly claim that things like this are easy to understand:
These ideas aren't easy. For my part, I don't take ideas like "social construct" concerning gender as useful for understanding my sense of self + gender. I also don't take the biological interpretation as fully explanatory. Sometimes, there's a sense that if the biology of a characteristic is discovered then that characteristic was fully determined prior to experience. At the same time, there's an assumption now that others can research ideas in the sciences using the Internet and that's easy enough to become convinced of another point-of-view. Other people are using theory terms because it seems better than relying on an idea of gender based on biology — meaning some people prefer a social explanation, just like some gay people wouldn't agree with the search for the "gay gene." Others prefer to have biological evidence for queerness, possibly because it would make it more possible for anti-queer people to give up their side of the "nature vs. nurture" debate. I personally don't think a biological explanation will be enough to end anti-queer prejudice. The anti-LGBTQ+ crowd prefers gender and sexual orientation to be based on nature, yet they also tend to blame the parents/the household environment when sexual and gender diversity develops. That worldview is incoherent and in bad faith.

Individuals take sides based on whether gender comes from biology or from society. My thought on sense of self and gender identity is that my gender is not a social construct and it's not totally biological, which is how I think about the OP's question. I think it's common to act as if transness is the theoretical gender or is a theory of gender a person may have when, as far as I know, any type of gender can become a topic for theories and research. There's this sense sometimes that transness is a variant of gender, which is subject to standards that wouldn't be applied to a conversation about non-transness. It's left for us to decide if transness could be social or biological, but for others — the cis crowd — it's "just biological" because sex is seen as biological and the world acts as if sex is gender when you're cis.

I look at my own gender and sense of self and experience something that isn't being conveyed by society. Of course, society is not obligated to "convey my gender," which at any rate is not under threat.
Last edited by Damchö_Dorje on Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:04 pm The percentage of persons who identify as transgender in the US is around 0.6% (vs. those who identify as LGBT+, 4.5%). The gender discussions that get the most media attention typically originate either in the halls of academe and often have little relation to daily life, or from controversial social situations. Most Americans get their info from TV or social media, not from primary sources, and I think there is quite a bit of confusion directly related to the increasingly strident media frenzy. The language is constantly evolving and can cause miscommunication, laws regarding gender are being debated left and right, people freak out over bathrooms because they have no clue what transgender actually means, etc. etc. - the topic has become a political flash point and is being totally manipulated to meet political agendas.

On the ground, the trans people I know just want to be treated with respect, addressed by the pronoun of their choice, and not misgendered. Most of us only want to go about our daily lives like everyone else, not as soldiers in some type of gender wars or spokespersons for some movement. Yes, there are some trans people who are very politicized and very vocal and very visible, but in my experience those are the exception, not the rule.
I can only agree with the above sentiment. However, I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.

It's a conversation that involves trans community activism, but is in no way exclusive to it, from my point of view. It could be summed up by saying that some activists elements choose to foregorund complex issues around gender identity and expression, rather than the part of your statement I bolded, which to my mind is the central theme here...dignity, autonomy, rights of trans people to live the lives they choose, etc.
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justsit
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm
justsit wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:04 pm ...
I can only agree with the above sentiment. However, I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.

It's a conversation that involves trans community activism, but is in no way exclusive to it, from my point of view. It could be summed up by saying that some activists elements choose to foregorund complex issues around gender identity and expression, rather than the part of your statement I bolded, which to my mind is the central theme here...dignity, autonomy, rights of trans people to live the lives they choose, etc.
That sounds about right. I'm just glad I'm not a questioning teenager trying to figure it all out in the midst of a hormone hurricane, and am past the age where I need to try to convince anyone of anything.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:17 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm
justsit wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 4:04 pm ...
I can only agree with the above sentiment. However, I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.

It's a conversation that involves trans community activism, but is in no way exclusive to it, from my point of view. It could be summed up by saying that some activists elements choose to foregorund complex issues around gender identity and expression, rather than the part of your statement I bolded, which to my mind is the central theme here...dignity, autonomy, rights of trans people to live the lives they choose, etc.
That sounds about right. I'm just glad I'm not a questioning teenager trying to figure it all out in the midst of a hormone hurricane, and am past the age where I need to try to convince anyone of anything.
Yes, especially now that I worked with some teens in that boat, it has given me a new perspective on how difficult it must be to navigate it all. And I live in a super-liberal place which is undoubtedly more accepting and safer than many places, I can't imagine how it is for kids in the South, etc.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm ... I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.
Very much agree. If the aim of political action is to achieve change in how people think and act, and the norms and laws the govern society, they are doing a spectacularly bad job of that.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PeterC wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:41 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm ... I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.
Very much agree. If the aim of political action is to achieve change in how people think and act, and the norms and laws the govern society, they are doing a spectacularly bad job of that.
There is no central transgender "organization" that speaks for transgender people and certainly no one person who leads a "movement"; the whole idea that there is some transgender master plan or something is ludicrous. People are making this up as they go along because there is no precedent, it's a total mishmash of a new vocabulary, science in its infancy, a ton of pseudoscience, politics, religion, and fear. Social media has turned the whole subject into a circus.

We'll have to wait until someone figures out a way to monetize it, get the ad folks involved, get a cool logo and a mascot, air slick commercials - they'll show us how to sell it. (sarcasm)
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 3:06 pm
PeterC wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:41 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:00 pm ... I think the issue with activism is an expression of an issue with the present culture of the left in general, where it intersects with and tries to influence public opinion. Sorry to say, in both the trans and antiracist communities there is some expected vocabulary that is academic, obscure, and kind of inward facing. There's endless debate about why this is, but I think the fact that it is so in places is almost undeniable.
Very much agree. If the aim of political action is to achieve change in how people think and act, and the norms and laws the govern society, they are doing a spectacularly bad job of that.
There is no central transgender "organization" that speaks for transgender people and certainly no one person who leads a "movement"; the whole idea that there is some transgender master plan or something is ludicrous. People are making this up as they go along because there is no precedent, it's a total mishmash of a new vocabulary, science in its infancy, a ton of pseudoscience, politics, religion, and fear. Social media has turned the whole subject into a circus.

We'll have to wait until someone figures out a way to monetize it, get the ad folks involved, get a cool logo and a mascot, air slick commercials - they'll show us how to sell it. (sarcasm)
Successful civil rights movements generally do develop spokespeople, organizations, etc. - and who dominates that discussion is very important to the sort of outcomes that are achieved, because if the speaker can be discredited, the message isn’t heard. That’s my point - achieving outcomes requires taking the process seriously.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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The social barriers to trans organization are numerous and significant.

About 0.6% of the US population is trans, roughly 1.4 million people. The states with the largest populations are California (218k), Texas (125K), and Florida (100K). The 10 states with the fewest trans people have a combined total of 38k. So - small numbers. (2016 most recent figures I could find, probably a bit more now)

Many trans people face obstacles such as low income (under 10K/yr.), poor access to health care, discrimination in schools and the workplace, safety/victimization, civil rights (documentation, etc.). This is a very small population, many marginalized, that will not have a lot of clout regardless of organizational status. There are groups such as GLAAD, Human Rights Campaign, etc. that cover all LGBT+ issues including trans, but budgets are small and finding trans poster children is difficult; Caitlyn Jenner is probably the best known US trans person, and she's hardly spokesperson material. There are some trans people willing to step into the limelight - athletes, actors, etc. have jumped into the ring - but opting to face the wrath of the right wing is something most trans people will avoid.

I think things will improve as more allies come on board, non-trans people and groups that are supportive for health and civil rights in particular. The National Center for Transgender Equality is doing some very good work, and a few more trans people entering the political arena have increased visibility. It's going to be a long slog, though.

https://transequality.org/
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 5:13 pm The social barriers to trans organization are numerous and significant.

About 0.6% of the US population is trans, roughly 1.4 million people. The states with the largest populations are California (218k), Texas (125K), and Florida (100K). The 10 states with the fewest trans people have a combined total of 38k. So - small numbers. (2016 most recent figures I could find, probably a bit more now)

Many trans people face obstacles such as low income (under 10K/yr.), poor access to health care, discrimination in schools and the workplace, safety/victimization, civil rights (documentation, etc.). This is a very small population, many marginalized, that will not have a lot of clout regardless of organizational status. There are groups such as GLAAD, Human Rights Campaign, etc. that cover all LGBT+ issues including trans, but budgets are small and finding trans poster children is difficult; Caitlyn Jenner is probably the best known US trans person, and she's hardly spokesperson material. There are some trans people willing to step into the limelight - athletes, actors, etc. have jumped into the ring - but opting to face the wrath of the right wing is something most trans people will avoid.

I think things will improve as more allies come on board, non-trans people and groups that are supportive for health and civil rights in particular. The National Center for Transgender Equality is doing some very good work, and a few more trans people entering the political arena have increased visibility. It's going to be a long slog, though.

https://transequality.org/
I think you are probably right. I personally feel that focusing on health civil rights and safety is probably a lot better bet than making academic, and somewhat debatable arguments about about the historical status of non-binary identities, etc. At least in the US, people respond very strongly to notions of fairness, and not so well to these more abstract claims that require a view of historical nuance that just isn't there for a lot of people. The link above does both. While I think some of the academic claims are pretty flimsy outside their subculture, I know that unquestionably trans people face all kinds of barrier to simply living the lives they want to live, are in greater danger of physical violence, suicidality etc.

However, awkwardly, a good portion of the left has decided to focus on "equity" to the exclusion of fairness. To some degree I get it, but it is skipping over the way of talking about things that tends to be more broadly accepted in US society, and choosing to focus on notions of identity that seem unlikely to ever gain a real understanding in the mainstream. For that matter, with the rate at which LGBTQIA canon changes, it makes for even more confusion. It also forces to people to play "oppression Olympics" at times they could be building solidarity, and to focus on how different groups are isolated rather than connected. I sometimes think that the result is that people are unable to connect (for instance) that the oppression of trans people is also a class thing. Caitlyn Jenners transition is a prime example of how being trans is completely different for different socioeconomic classes.

The intersectionalist people at least pay lip service to this, but only just. Anyway, I know it is not my place in the current schema to tell groups whose "lived experience" I don't have how to conduct their activism, but I see the same approach continuing to fail because it is an attempt to win an unwinnable culture war, instead of building broad solidarity around more concrete social and material issues. It's the same approach that the mandatory "equity" seminars at my job take (which aren't all bad of course); they spend a whole day on microagressions and identity, and virtually no time at all on the socioeconomic status of black communities, the school to prison pipeline, etc.

I don't see what people are supposed to learn from that stuff, it takes oppression - which is largely systemic, relates to state and economic structures and historical inequities, and it turns them all into things having to do with personal interactions that are often culturally dependent. An example would be the bit in the link about "not assuming people's gender" wrt to non-binary peple. Honestly, beyond a sliver of youngest generations- at a certain point in their development- it is pretty "normal" for most humans to simply assume gender based on appearance. That is unlikely to be a thing that changes broadly in society, and I wonder why people would choose to focus on it, I find it hard to believe that there is anyone out there likely to be damaged if someone calls them ma'am or similar because they chose to dress in a "female" manner. I do wonder if choosing to focus on this sort of really can turn people away from examining the larger issues.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:08 pm ....
Honestly, beyond a sliver of youngest generations- at a certain point in their development- it is pretty "normal" for most humans to simply assume gender based on appearance. That is unlikely to be a thing that changes broadly in society, and I wonder why people would choose to focus on it, I find it hard to believe that there is anyone out there likely to be damaged if someone calls them ma'am or similar because they chose to dress in a "female" manner. I do wonder if choosing to focus on this sort of really can turn people away from examining the larger issues.
Because ultimately, gender, like politics, is local. What's "normal" for most humans to assume will need to be expanded, and I think eventually will change as more people become accustomed to the idea. For example, some companies have really stepped up their game as far as language related to customer service, advertising, etc. As with many new ideas, urban areas are generally earlier adopters.

For most trans people, at least the ones I know, very little of their daily activity involves being part of a "movement" but is focused on the personal experiences and pitfalls of trans daily life. "Is there a safe bathroom in this building?" "Will my parents throw me out when I tell them I'm trans?" "Will the cop think my ID is a fake?" "Will I get the job if they know I'm trans?" And yes, there are some who are traumatized by being constantly misgendered and harassed - wouldn't you be? Not to mention, being misgendered can have dire consequences - why do you think the majority of murdered trans people are black transwomen?

The AIDS epidemic in the 80's gave birth to the gay rights movement, and gradually the other gender/sexual orientation minorities have joined together to form a loose coalition that has some political clout. The LGBTQ+ population in the US is now estimated at about 4.5%, so the potential is growing for a more prominent political presence. Yes, I'd like to see a large and effective lobby in DC, but resources are limited and with the current political climate so volatile, I don't hold out much hope for significant change in my lifetime.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:53 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:08 pm ....
Honestly, beyond a sliver of youngest generations- at a certain point in their development- it is pretty "normal" for most humans to simply assume gender based on appearance. That is unlikely to be a thing that changes broadly in society, and I wonder why people would choose to focus on it, I find it hard to believe that there is anyone out there likely to be damaged if someone calls them ma'am or similar because they chose to dress in a "female" manner. I do wonder if choosing to focus on this sort of really can turn people away from examining the larger issues.
Because ultimately, gender, like politics, is local. What's "normal" for most humans to assume will need to be expanded, and I think eventually will change as more people become accustomed to the idea. For example, some companies have really stepped up their game as far as language related to customer service, advertising, etc. As with many new ideas, urban areas are generally earlier adopters.
First, thanks for replying, I know this is not an easy conversation necessarily and I appreciate willingness to engage what I've said.

Sure, but the thing is it is an attempt to take an iffy thing - changing gendered language entirely, and an assumption that we have the cultural consensus to do that. I just don't think it is there yet. It is one thing (quite reasonable) to ask that people call others what they request, to respect (known) pronouns, not be deadnamed, to use the bathroom one chooses, etc. It is another thing to ask that people "not assume gender" based on visual appearance, when something like "assuming gender" is simply something pretty common to most people''s lives, and which is not attached to any anti-trans ideology. Also I will be frank here, the people adopting these terms are in the main upper class and liberal. We can talk about why that is, whether it is fair, and how much fairness even comes into play there, but it is mostly so. So, when we attach use of certain terms as "correct" to a certain culture- mainly white liberal culture, there is a backdraft from other subcultures, plenty of which are also "urban".

I don't object to all of it either, I tend to use "they" as often as possible in places like forms, etc. I can see some argument for changing language in places, voluntarily. I think there are harder limits on policing the language of others and I think that sometimes examples like the one I mention possibly cross a line.

A good example? In some US cultures "ma'am" and "sir" are very specifically ways that a person can show respect to the person they are talking to. Someone trying to simply make it no longer a thing to say "sir" and "ma'am" (I can't tell if that's what you are arguing here, because I am not sure what you objecting to about my words, or whether you understand what -I- am specifically referring to). So, it really is not trans people, or non-binary people's place to tell others to stop using these gendered terms that serve a fairly significant purpose in some cultures. In no way do I think that all trans people support that, or that even non-binary people are a monolith with one opinion on things, but I know from the community that I live in it is the sort of thing that happens with some people who declare themselves "non binary" or "gender fluid".

If you'd like an example, my local book co-op once had a sign at the counter saying "do not assume employee gender" basded on appearance...sorry, but that is just not something that should be expected of people outside a certain (again, usually white, liberal and wealthy) subculture. People assuming gender when people present a certain way is not cause for offense, and I don't quite understand why some people would think it is.

In other words, "smashing the gender binary" is a bit different thing than demanding respect and basic human rights, isn't it?

This is not the same thing as someone intentionally deadnaming or misgendering someone else, they are worlds apart, and I am fully supportive of laws the prevent trans people from employment discrimination, protect from violence, etc. and have voted for them each time they have come to my area.
For most trans people, at least the ones I know, very little of their daily activity involves being part of a "movement" but is focused on the personal experiences and pitfalls of trans daily life. "Is there a safe bathroom in this building?" "Will my parents throw me out when I tell them I'm trans?" "Will the cop think my ID is a fake?" "Will I get the job if they know I'm trans?" And yes, there are some who are traumatized by being constantly misgendered and harassed - wouldn't you be? Not to mention, being misgendered can have dire consequences - why do you think the majority of murdered trans people are black transwomen?
Yes I know all this and totally agree, I was specifically taking issue with things like expecting people "not to assume gender" when people present as a certain gender. I live in a very liberal place and have actually seen this. It's an insular request that only people who live in a liberal culture with time to think about this stuff is ever going to pay much attention to. On the other hand, simply saying that trans people need to have their chosen gender recognized elgally seems quite common sense to me. If you want my personal take, most of the things I do not understand in this vein come from "gender fluid" "smash the gender binary" quarters, and not simply from trans people, as you say all the trans people I have known simply want to live their lives, and even inf they are activists don't always want to be a symbol of something.
The AIDS epidemic in the 80's gave birth to the gay rights movement, and gradually the other gender/sexual orientation minorities have joined together to form a loose coalition that has some political clout. The LGBTQ+ population in the US is now estimated at about 4.5%, so the potential is growing for a more prominent political presence. Yes, I'd like to see a large and effective lobby in DC, but resources are limited and with the current political climate so volatile, I don't hold out much hope for significant change in my lifetime.
I think it's pretty hard to compare what I am talking about here (specifically a very small section of people identifying as gender fluid etc. and think that we simply shouldn't have a gender binary) and the gay rights movement, they appear to me to have chosen a very different tack in terms of activism. I think you are 100% right in terms of getting legal rights for things like bathroom use, employment protection etc., protection fro violence and harassment but I am not sure the other stuff (wanting to be recognized as a third gender, pick from an expansive list of pronouns) etc. are ever going to be anything but culturally contentious. I could be wrong and I am happy to change with the times, I don't spend my time being nasty to people who choose to view themselves as gender-fluid etc., it just appears to me to be a cultural movement which might overlap with trans rights, but is pretty different in some significant ways.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 2:08 am
I think it's pretty hard to compare what I am talking about here (specifically a very small section of people identifying as gender fluid etc. and think that we simply shouldn't have a gender binary) and the gay rights movement, they appear to me to have chosen a very different tack in terms of activism. I think you are 100% right in terms of getting legal rights for things like bathroom use, employment protection etc., protection fro violence and harassment but I am not sure the other stuff (wanting to be recognized as a third gender, pick from an expansive list of pronouns) etc. are ever going to be anything but culturally contentious. I could be wrong and I am happy to change with the times, I don't spend my time being nasty to people who choose to view themselves as gender-fluid etc., it just appears to me to be a cultural movement which might overlap with trans rights, but is pretty different in some significant ways.
Sorry for butting in. I think I agree with what you are saying and would want to give a UK illustration.

In the UK gender reassignment is a protected characteristic in our Equality and Diversity Law. So it should be. A person has a right to present as a different sex to their birth and have that respected.

However, the Trans Activist bodies, such as Stonewall, wish to change the protected characteristic to gender identity. That then encompasses the whole of the non binary genders. In fact, we are already starting to see the word 'Trans' used as an umbrella term for any non-binary identification - no longer being specific to assist people with gender dysphoria.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Agree, the word has been co-opted. This is the Merriam-Webster definition (bold is mine):

Transgender - adjective

trans·​gen·​der | \ tran(t)s-ˈjen-dər
tranz- \
Definition of transgender

: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth especially : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

When I use the term, this is the meaning I'm referencing. Unfortunately, as noted in previous posts, it has taken on whole other levels of meaning in common usage, causing vast confusion.

But the ship has already sailed; hopefully the language will sort itself out over time. The only advice I can offer is to try to respect others' choices.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

justsit wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:20 pm Agree, the word has been co-opted. This is the Merriam-Webster definition (bold is mine):

Transgender - adjective

trans·​gen·​der | \ tran(t)s-ˈjen-dər
tranz- \
Definition of transgender

: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth especially : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

When I use the term, this is the meaning I'm referencing. Unfortunately, as noted in previous posts, it has taken on whole other levels of meaning in common usage, causing vast confusion.

But the ship has already sailed; hopefully the language will sort itself out over time. The only advice I can offer is to try to respect others' choices.
Yes indeed. The odd thing is this never used to be a problem for me.

Before I retired I had a cross dresser working for me. When he started I didn't know whether he was a cross dresser, transvestite, transgender - but hey! I didn't need to know - his personal identity was his to express anyway he wished and none off my business. I could tell he felt deeply suspicious of new people - but we were there to work so that was my only concern. To be honest, even asking him if there was anything I needed to do for him to be comfortable at work felt like an intrusive question.

He warmed up over time, we got to know each other and he started to trust me a little more with his private life. Even invited me to watch his theatre group perform.

But now ... I cannot imagine how excruciating it must be for a transgender person to sit through a diversity awareness`seminar at work while people 'learn' how to treat you. It's kind of offensive to everyone . Show a little compassion - don't be a dick. That covers most things.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 4:20 pm Agree, the word has been co-opted. This is the Merriam-Webster definition (bold is mine):

Transgender - adjective

trans·​gen·​der | \ tran(t)s-ˈjen-dər
tranz- \
Definition of transgender

: of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity differs from the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth especially : of, relating to, or being a person whose gender identity is opposite the sex the person had or was identified as having at birth.

When I use the term, this is the meaning I'm referencing. Unfortunately, as noted in previous posts, it has taken on whole other levels of meaning in common usage, causing vast confusion.

But the ship has already sailed; hopefully the language will sort itself out over time. The only advice I can offer is to try to respect others' choices.
I agree, the bolder part is always a good reminder for me.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
tingdzin
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by tingdzin »

droogiefret wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:40 pm Show a little compassion - don't be a dick. That covers most things.
Much more than that is just another indication of decadence.
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justsit
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by justsit »

tingdzin wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:27 am
droogiefret wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:40 pm Show a little compassion - don't be a dick. That covers most things.
Much more than that is just another indication of decadence.
Lol, if that's the worst thing I'd ever been called I'd call it a win.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Caoimhghín »

justsit wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:13 pmLol, if that's the worst thing I'd ever been called I'd call it a win.
"Just don't call me late for dinner while you misgender me!"
:group:
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Nilasarasvati
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Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Nilasarasvati »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:29 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:15 pm
I detect no tactics on this thread - nor any attempts to obfuscate. You do?
The fact that everyone wants to talk about "gender ideology" and no one is interested in understanding the experience of gender is in itself obfuscating. Gender ideology is more a creation of its opponents than of its alleged adherents.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
100% Amazing and accurate. As a person of trans experience I feel my a lot of my thoughts or wishes have been well-reprsented in Kathy's efforts to poke at certain assumptions.
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Nilasarasvati
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Location: Trāyastriṃśa. Just kidding. What a cool sanksrit word, huh?

Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Nilasarasvati »

There is a wealth of discourse on these issues that I wish everybody here was aware of. I wish that the wide diversity of disagreement and polemics about gender from WITHIN queer spaces was something that mainstream Cis/straight people were exposed to.

I want to express some gratitude: most of the voices in this thread have been metered, careful and thoughtful and compassionate. Of course not everybody here is a gender identity scholar or super familiar with the topics herein discussed, except through whatever journalism or personal experience with trans people that y'all have.

As a therapist who specializes in working with Transgender individuals, and somebody on that spectrum myself, somebody who lives in the community that inevitably is being discussed as "other" here, I wanted to share two perspectives:

Lopon Rita Gross, a student of CTR and later Jetsun Khandro Rinpoche, wrote a really wonderful essay called "How Clinging to Gender Identity Subverts Enlightenment." https://www.inquiringmind.com/article/2 ... ghtenment/

The thesis being that those who feel the LEAST attached/aware of their gender identity (in this essay, Men), are potentially the ones who have the steepest grade to climb still regarding their clinging to it.

On the other hand, I'd say that people who overly concretize and essentialize Gender are clearly almost Silly, and many trans scholars would agree with the Lacanian statement "If a man who thinks he is a king is mad, than a king who thinks he is a king is no less so." I'm aware of this quote because of a Remarkable book on gender, emobdiment, pregnancy etc. by Maggie Nelson called The Argonauts. IT's a wonderful book full of contemplations about all the above.

If anybody has specific questions or qualms regarding this entire world of concerns, please feel free to private message me or ask in this forum. I'm happy to post myself up as an ambassador.
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