Innate sense of self and gender identity

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droogiefret
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Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

Hi all - it's been a while. I came looking for some Buddhist (or any kind of meditation based) view on this topic. I found the Chappelle 'Closer' thread but it its a little old to revive and also my question is more specific.

I am trying to educate myself about Transgender people and have realised that the political activism is mostly based on Gender Identity Ideology. I know many transgender people do not necessarily feel well represented by the the political activism (e.g Youtuber Blair White), but, nevertheless, Gender Identity ideology seems to be accepted by nearly all political parties and charities - certainly in the UK on the political left (Amnesty, Green etc..)

And, as a lifelong leftist, here is my problem.

Gender Identity Ideology assumes that we all, everyone of us, have a deeply felt innate sense of our own gender. But I don't - I am confident that my own sense of self is devoid of gender. And this is not because I am 'CIS male' - if I were to wake tomorrow with a female body I am pretty certain my sense of self would be unchanged.

So, what is going on here? Do some people have a Gender Identity and some don't? I am coming around to the view that it is a personal constructed reality - that is, a Gender Identity can be real for you if you have that worldview - but doesn't exist if you don't.

What about you? Do you have an innate sense of self that has a gender?
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Shinjin »

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)
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justsit
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by justsit »

Are you looking for general replies, or strictly those within a Buddhist framework?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by FiveSkandhas »

There is the famous story in the Lotus Sutra of the Naga Princess flipping from female to male (and back again?); there are other sutras suggesting the general fluidity and mutability of gender.

Make of that what you will. :shrug:
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Sādhaka
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Sādhaka »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:16 pm There is the famous story in the Lotus Sutra of the Naga Princess flipping from female to male (and back again?); there are other sutras suggesting the general fluidity and mutability of gender.

Make of that what you will. :shrug:

Perhaps as an actual Siddhi, not mere wishful-thinking.
Malcolm
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:16 pm There is the famous story in the Lotus Sutra of the Naga Princess flipping from female to male (and back again?); there are other sutras suggesting the general fluidity and mutability of gender.

Make of that what you will. :shrug:
In her case, its one way.

In the story of the house goddess of Vimalakirti, it's back and forth.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Archie2009 »

Aren't the left and right channels reversed for men and women? How is this factored in (for humans)?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 10:15 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:16 pm There is the famous story in the Lotus Sutra of the Naga Princess flipping from female to male (and back again?); there are other sutras suggesting the general fluidity and mutability of gender.

Make of that what you will. :shrug:
In her case, its one way.

In the story of the house goddess of Vimalakirti, it's back and forth.
Thanks for confirming that. I was fairly sure the other major example was the Vimalakirti Sutra, but I couldn't remember for sure.

Another image that comes to mind is the Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara's portrayal as male or female in different times and places. Most scholarship I have come across tends to imply that the change occured as a kind of "cultural drift," but there are a number of Lotus Sutra afficionados who ground the difference textually in that Sutra, in a passage that tells how Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara can take on any form needed to help beings, thus meaning either male or female.

The Bodhisattva Ksitigarbha also began his/her career as a female but gained a male form in later incarnations. I'm not sure that reincarnation as a different gender packs quite the same polemical punch as transformation within the same lifetime, bit there it is.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

"Just be kind." -Atisha
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by KathyLauren »

droogiefret wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:19 pm Gender Identity Ideology assumes that we all, everyone of us, have a deeply felt innate sense of our own gender. But I don't - I am confident that my own sense of self is devoid of gender. And this is not because I am 'CIS male' - if I were to wake tomorrow with a female body I am pretty certain my sense of self would be unchanged.
Your sense of gender is "Yes, I am what everyone assumes I am." There is no particular experience there, so there is not a lot to sense. A sense of gender really only makes itself felt when it is at odds with society's expectation. You don't feel it because you are cisgender.

A transgender person experiences gender as gender dysphoria, a rather specific feeling that cisgender people have never known. Your "sense of gender" is, "Duh, of course." A transgender person's sense of gender is "Hell, this ain't right." So it is not surprising that you cannot relate to it. It is a bit like trying to describe the colour blue to a blind person. It can't be done, because there is no shared experience.

If you were to wake tomorrow with a female body, I am pretty sure your reaction would be, "Hell, this ain't right."

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Everyone has an innate sense of self, in the sense of samsaric beings being “innately” ignorant of reality..we have it from birth, and from the Buddhist view, before. The point is to become aware of the fact that it is not real in the way we assume it is. “Self image” is ephemeral and changes throughput the single lifespan, say nothing of multiple lives.

That said, relatively people do most certainly have relative identities that arise from a combination of all sorts of things, gender, sex etc. being among them.

I personally think a lot of the gender identity politics seems confused as hell, however, I support people in living the lives they wish to live. I do not need to agree with the various details of anyone’s politics for that.

There is a conflict at the heart of this debate over gender essentialism, aspects of gender fluidity, and feminist and lesbian identities..and from what I’ve seen, there is no real “official” consensus on the details in the LGBTQ community itself. I gather that internally, there are tensions here and there. Not being a part of that community, I can only go by various debates but I shouldn’t and don’t get a vote.

As far as you not having a particularly strong sense of gender, perhaps your sense of self is simply not tied strongly to that.

To be fair, it is pretty easy to say one doesn’t have a gender identity as a cis male though, I don’t have to worry about my gender much, so it’s easy to assume it’s not a big thing.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Archie2009 »

I didn't mean to bash with my first post/question in this thread about the left and right channels, but cisgender is a political term meaning oppressor, basically. Everything is analysed in terms of power dynamics, a zero sum game between intersecting group identities. It's insidious how the woke get people not on the gender/queer ideology & CRT bandwagon to adopt their jargon and participate in their wordgames. Only an idiot would self-apply the term cisgender imo. (Or apologise for their 'whiteness'.)
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by KathyLauren »

I think that politicizing the discussion is going to get in the way of understanding the nature of gender identity. If you actually want to understand it, try the discussion without the denunciations and ideologies.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Archie2009 wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:52 am I didn't mean to bash with my first post/question in this thread about the left and right channels, but cisgender is a political term meaning oppressor, basically. Everything is analysed in terms of power dynamics, a zero sum game between intersecting group identities. It's insidious how the woke get people not on the gender/queer ideology & CRT bandwagon to adopt their jargon and participate in their wordgames. Only an idiot would self-apply the term cisgender imo. (Or apologise for their 'whiteness'.)
Don’t call people idiots if you want to have a conversation, definitely don’t call me one.

Anyway, I’m no big fan of oppression olympics, and I have no other word. I think that regardless of whether one agrees with jargon or politics though, it is factual that trans people faces struggles that people who are not trans do not have to think about.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:15 am Everyone has an innate sense of self, in the sense of samsaric beings being “innately” ignorant of reality..we have it from birth, and from the Buddhist view, before. The point is to become aware of the fact that it is not real in the way we assume it is. “Self image” is ephemeral and changes throughput the single lifespan, say nothing of multiple lives.

That said, relatively people do most certainly have relative identities that arise from a combination of all sorts of things, gender, sex etc. being among them. ...
I like the last sentence I quoted more than the first, mostly because I don't believe we have an "innate sense of self" and especially that "we have it from birth". All the early-childhood developmental studies, and all the comparisons with animal intelligence, point to the "sense of self" gradually developing (being constructed, in fact) in our first two or three years. And a lot of other psych theory points to language as being crucial to the kind of memory that the "sense of self" depends on - basically that we continually tell ourselves a story about who we are - which in turn means that it can't begin to take its familiar shape until we have language skills.
None of which contradicts your second sentence, btw.

Society collaborates in the construction of a child's identity, of course - very heavily, in many cases. It starts with "Is your baby a boy or a girl?" and continues with "Boys don't do that! That's a girl thing!" etc, etc. At some point the child - or young adult - may kick back against that conditioning, and that revolt itself becomes a part of the "sense of self". And so it goes...

I'm lucky because, like most people's, my biology and sexual preferences line up pretty closely with society's expectations. But I have friends who are not so lucky. Comments from two of them have stuck with me for years. One, a gay guy, said, "I don't know any gay people who don't wish they happened to be straight." The other, a trans woman, was talking about the light-bulb moment in a confusing, unhappy, time. "Oh! Wrong body!!" And that resolved the misery by showing the way forward.

:namaste:
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I should have clarified, from a Buddhist pov, “sense of self” means something different than in modern Pysch parlance, and that’s mostly how I mean it - the erroneous sense of self/other etc. It shares some similarity and overlap with the sense you are talking about, but is “innate” and defining in terms of samsaric beings, a default setting.

Far as the other stuff, it’s not that cut and dried because to a large degree temperament -which is biological- certainly contributes to, or is part of a sense of self, and of course there are some theories about biological origins of sexual preference, different gender identity, etc.

It is by no means settled that it is all “nurture” even in modern developmental studies, cognitive science, etc.

Anecdotally, anyone with kids knows they come with some presets too, plenty of times ones you’d never guess.

Of course I’ve heard similar stuff talking to trans and gay people as you have. Now that I work with teens I also see the social alienation and other stuff that young people face around coming out, entrenched family attitudes, etc., it is so much for them to deal with. People can be so shitty to them that it’s really heartbreaking.

I had a rough childhood, but these issues are quite specific and not anything I can compare experiences to….with the possible exception of being mocked for a visible physical disability when young, and even then, apples and oranges.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Konchog1 »

I've always felt gender identity is influenced by your gender in the most recent past lives.
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droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

justsit wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 6:40 pm Are you looking for general replies, or strictly those within a Buddhist framework?
Sorry, I didn't mean to appear arrogant - any views of course. It's just that we all, of course have an objective lived experience related to our bodies - and a cognitive sense of identity. I just wanted to get past that - if possible.
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 9:16 pm There is the famous story in the Lotus Sutra of the Naga Princess flipping from female to male (and back again?); there are other sutras suggesting the general fluidity and mutability of gender.

Make of that what you will. :shrug:
Well it's something to ponder - for sure.
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

KathyLauren wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:13 am
droogiefret wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 5:19 pm Gender Identity Ideology assumes that we all, everyone of us, have a deeply felt innate sense of our own gender. But I don't - I am confident that my own sense of self is devoid of gender. And this is not because I am 'CIS male' - if I were to wake tomorrow with a female body I am pretty certain my sense of self would be unchanged.
Your sense of gender is "Yes, I am what everyone assumes I am." There is no particular experience there, so there is not a lot to sense. A sense of gender really only makes itself felt when it is at odds with society's expectation. You don't feel it because you are cisgender.

A transgender person experiences gender as gender dysphoria, a rather specific feeling that cisgender people have never known. Your "sense of gender" is, "Duh, of course." A transgender person's sense of gender is "Hell, this ain't right." So it is not surprising that you cannot relate to it. It is a bit like trying to describe the colour blue to a blind person. It can't be done, because there is no shared experience.

If you were to wake tomorrow with a female body, I am pretty sure your reaction would be, "Hell, this ain't right."

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
'Not being able to relate to it' is interesting'.

At the same time, as a Buddhist, you wouldn't encourage me to believe in an inner state I cannot possibly verify for myself would you?

Gender dysphoria is patently real. But gender identity sounds more like a state that can arise, rather than a universal condition that everyone has all the time.

I suspect Gender Identity ideology requires everyone to have a gender identity for that worldview to be logically coherent. Is that the case? - or would you be happy to accept my contention that it is more a state that can arise, but may not?
droogiefret
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 12:15 am Everyone has an innate sense of self, in the sense of samsaric beings being “innately” ignorant of reality..we have it from birth, and from the Buddhist view, before. The point is to become aware of the fact that it is not real in the way we assume it is. “Self image” is ephemeral and changes throughput the single lifespan, say nothing of multiple lives.

That said, relatively people do most certainly have relative identities that arise from a combination of all sorts of things, gender, sex etc. being among them.

I personally think a lot of the gender identity politics seems confused as hell, however, I support people in living the lives they wish to live. I do not need to agree with the various details of anyone’s politics for that.

There is a conflict at the heart of this debate over gender essentialism, aspects of gender fluidity, and feminist and lesbian identities..and from what I’ve seen, there is no real “official” consensus on the details in the LGBTQ community itself. I gather that internally, there are tensions here and there. Not being a part of that community, I can only go by various debates but I shouldn’t and don’t get a vote.

As far as you not having a particularly strong sense of gender, perhaps your sense of self is simply not tied strongly to that.

To be fair, it is pretty easy to say one doesn’t have a gender identity as a cis male though, I don’t have to worry about my gender much, so it’s easy to assume it’s not a big thing.
Yes. I am aware that Gender Identity was at least partly developed in feminist literature. But in such philosophical writing I have difficulty differentiating between 'innate sense' and 'firmly held conviction'. The latter could be very cerebral whereas the former feels more like an awakening.

Well, whichever route you take - I'm not sure it is valid to assume your own realities or convictions must be true for every one.
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