justsit wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 2:53 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Sun Apr 17, 2022 8:08 pm
....
Honestly, beyond a sliver of youngest generations- at a certain point in their development- it is pretty "normal" for most humans to simply assume gender based on appearance. That is unlikely to be a thing that changes broadly in society, and I wonder why people would choose to focus on it, I find it hard to believe that there is anyone out there likely to be damaged if someone calls them ma'am or similar because they chose to dress in a "female" manner. I do wonder if choosing to focus on this sort of really can turn people away from examining the larger issues.
Because ultimately, gender, like politics, is local. What's "normal" for most humans to
assume will need to be expanded, and I think eventually will change as more people become accustomed to the idea. For example, some companies have really stepped up their game as far as language related to customer service, advertising, etc. As with many new ideas, urban areas are generally earlier adopters.
First, thanks for replying, I know this is not an easy conversation necessarily and I appreciate willingness to engage what I've said.
Sure, but the thing is it is an attempt to take an iffy thing - changing gendered language entirely, and an assumption that we have the cultural consensus to do that. I just don't think it is there yet. It is one thing (quite reasonable) to ask that people call others what they request, to respect (known) pronouns, not be deadnamed, to use the bathroom one chooses, etc. It is another thing to ask that people "not assume gender" based on visual appearance, when something like "assuming gender" is simply something pretty common to most people''s lives, and which is not attached to any anti-trans ideology. Also I will be frank here, the people adopting these terms are in the main upper class and liberal. We can talk about why that is, whether it is fair, and how much fairness even comes into play there, but it is mostly so. So, when we attach use of certain terms as "correct" to a certain culture- mainly white liberal culture, there is a backdraft from other subcultures, plenty of which are also "urban".
I don't object to all of it either, I tend to use "they" as often as possible in places like forms, etc. I can see some argument for changing language in places, voluntarily. I think there are harder limits on policing the language of others and I think that sometimes examples like the one I mention possibly cross a line.
A good example? In some US cultures "ma'am" and "sir" are very specifically ways that a person can show respect to the person they are talking to. Someone trying to simply make it no longer a thing to say "sir" and "ma'am" (I can't tell if that's what you are arguing here, because I am not sure what you objecting to about my words, or whether you understand what -I- am specifically referring to). So, it really is not trans people, or non-binary people's place to tell others to stop using these gendered terms that serve a fairly significant purpose in some cultures. In no way do I think that all trans people support that, or that even non-binary people are a monolith with one opinion on things, but I know from the community that I live in it is the sort of thing that happens with some people who declare themselves "non binary" or "gender fluid".
If you'd like an example, my local book co-op once had a sign at the counter saying "do not assume employee gender" basded on appearance...sorry, but that is just not something that should be expected of people outside a certain (again, usually white, liberal and wealthy) subculture. People assuming gender when people present a certain way is not cause for offense, and I don't quite understand why some people would think it is.
In other words, "smashing the gender binary" is a bit different thing than demanding respect and basic human rights, isn't it?
This is not the same thing as someone intentionally deadnaming or misgendering someone else, they are worlds apart, and I am fully supportive of laws the prevent trans people from employment discrimination, protect from violence, etc. and have voted for them each time they have come to my area.
For most trans people, at least the ones I know, very little of their daily activity involves being part of a "movement" but is focused on the personal experiences and pitfalls of trans daily life. "Is there a safe bathroom in this building?" "Will my parents throw me out when I tell them I'm trans?" "Will the cop think my ID is a fake?" "Will I get the job if they know I'm trans?" And yes, there are some who are traumatized by being constantly misgendered and harassed - wouldn't you be? Not to mention, being misgendered can have dire consequences - why do you think the majority of murdered trans people are black transwomen?
Yes I know all this and totally agree, I was specifically taking issue with things like expecting people "not to assume gender"
when people present as a certain gender. I live in a very liberal place and have actually seen this. It's an insular request that only people who live in a liberal culture with time to think about this stuff is ever going to pay much attention to. On the other hand, simply saying that trans people need to have their chosen gender recognized elgally seems quite common sense to me. If you want my personal take, most of the things I do not understand in this vein come from "gender fluid" "smash the gender binary" quarters, and not simply from trans people, as you say all the trans people I have known simply want to live their lives, and even inf they are activists don't always want to be a symbol of something.
The AIDS epidemic in the 80's gave birth to the gay rights movement, and gradually the other gender/sexual orientation minorities have joined together to form a loose coalition that has some political clout. The LGBTQ+ population in the US is now estimated at about 4.5%, so the potential is growing for a more prominent political presence. Yes, I'd like to see a large and effective lobby in DC, but resources are limited and with the current political climate so volatile, I don't hold out much hope for significant change in my lifetime.
I think it's pretty hard to compare what I am talking about here (specifically a very small section of people identifying as gender fluid etc. and think that we simply shouldn't have a gender binary) and the gay rights movement, they appear to me to have chosen a very different tack in terms of activism. I think you are 100% right in terms of getting legal rights for things like bathroom use, employment protection etc., protection fro violence and harassment but I am not sure the other stuff (wanting to be recognized as a third gender, pick from an expansive list of pronouns) etc. are ever going to be anything but culturally contentious. I could be wrong and I am happy to change with the times, I don't spend my time being nasty to people who choose to view themselves as gender-fluid etc., it just appears to me to be a cultural movement which might overlap with trans rights, but is pretty different in some significant ways.