Innate sense of self and gender identity

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boda
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by boda »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:15 pm "Gender identity" refers to a person's sense of where they fit on that spectrum. It is more than a thought: it is biologically determined by structures in the brain.
Are you sure that it's biologically determined? Our conditioning, much of which is socially influenced, also determines how we mentally develop.
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justsit
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:41 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:15 pm "Gender identity" refers to a person's sense of where they fit on that spectrum. It is more than a thought: it is biologically determined by structures in the brain.
Are you sure that it's biologically determined? Our conditioning, much of which is socially influenced, also determines how we mentally develop.
There is a strong biological component, check the study linked in my previous post. That is not to say that social conditioning doesn't also play a role, but evidence is now accepted in the scientific community that hormonal influences are a factor in gender identity formation. Much additional research remains to be done.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by boda »

justsit wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:37 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:41 pm
KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 12:15 pm "Gender identity" refers to a person's sense of where they fit on that spectrum. It is more than a thought: it is biologically determined by structures in the brain.
Are you sure that it's biologically determined? Our conditioning, much of which is socially influenced, also determines how we mentally develop.
There is a strong biological component, check the study linked in my previous post. That is not to say that social conditioning doesn't also play a role, but evidence is now accepted in the scientific community that hormonal influences are a factor in gender identity formation. Much additional research remains to be done.
I don't think anyone is disputing a strong biological component. Strong components can influence an outcome but don't determine an outcome. There's also the fact that male/female, what those terms mean, is largely socially constructed, and if they're mere constructions then they can be reconstructed.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by KathyLauren »

boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:05 pm
justsit wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:37 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:41 pm

Are you sure that it's biologically determined? Our conditioning, much of which is socially influenced, also determines how we mentally develop.
There is a strong biological component, check the study linked in my previous post. That is not to say that social conditioning doesn't also play a role, but evidence is now accepted in the scientific community that hormonal influences are a factor in gender identity formation. Much additional research remains to be done.
I don't think anyone is disputing a strong biological component. Strong components can influence an outcome but don't determine an outcome. There's also the fact that male/female, what those terms mean, is largely socially constructed, and if they're mere constructions then they can be reconstructed.
Is there evidence that gender is largely socially constructed? I know it is common to claim it is so, but it seems to me that the claim is never substantiated. At least the claim for a biological basis is on solid evidence-based scientific footing.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Malcolm »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:30 pm At least the claim for a biological basis is on solid evidence-based scientific footing.
Right down to the nadis in our bodies. But that is just a karmic thing, a fact of embodiment. The mind has no gender.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:30 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:05 pm
justsit wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:37 pm
There is a strong biological component, check the study linked in my previous post. That is not to say that social conditioning doesn't also play a role, but evidence is now accepted in the scientific community that hormonal influences are a factor in gender identity formation. Much additional research remains to be done.
I don't think anyone is disputing a strong biological component. Strong components can influence an outcome but don't determine an outcome. There's also the fact that male/female, what those terms mean, is largely socially constructed, and if they're mere constructions then they can be reconstructed.
Is there evidence that gender is largely socially constructed? I know it is common to claim it is so, but it seems to me that the claim is never substantiated. At least the claim for a biological basis is on solid evidence-based scientific footing.

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Kathy
The fact that gender roles vary significantly across cultures might be one clue.

Typical gender stereotypes claim that women are higher in neuroticism, agreeableness, warmth, and openness to feelings, whereas men are higher in assertiveness and openness to Ideas.

I think of myself as a man, though I think that I'm uncommonly open to feelings for a dude, and rather neurotic, if I'm honest. I also think that I'm open to ideas but not very assertive. Given these qualities, others might think I'm kinda girly, and in fact, more than a few people have mistaken me for being gay in the past.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:36 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 4:25 am

That makes no sense whatsoever. What exactly is the difference between gender and gender identity in this context?
There is an argument that that the various aspects are deliberately difficult to understand as a cohesive whole. Something to do with post-modernism I think - though I am not a philosophy expert.
Rather it seeks to destabilize categories like gender in order to undermine the oppressive status quo (straight white male). Based on postmodernism but not strictly postmodern because no "ideology" can be postmodern.
I am not a gender identity ideology fan.
You just said that you don't understand it, yet you're not a fan?
Well you can't sit on the fence forever can you? Opinions start to form even if they change as knowledge grows.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by boda »

droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:42 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:36 pm
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:58 am

There is an argument that that the various aspects are deliberately difficult to understand as a cohesive whole. Something to do with post-modernism I think - though I am not a philosophy expert.
Rather it seeks to destabilize categories like gender in order to undermine the oppressive status quo (straight white male). Based on postmodernism but not strictly postmodern because no "ideology" can be postmodern.
I am not a gender identity ideology fan.
You just said that you don't understand it, yet you're not a fan?
Well you can't sit on the fence forever can you? Opinions start to form even if they change as knowledge grows.
Why not? We can support trans activism but, for instance, be against propaganda techniques that it may use. We can appreciate the value of conservatism while still striving for progress and social justice. We don't need to take a damn side.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by droogiefret »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:30 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:05 pm
justsit wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:37 pm
There is a strong biological component, check the study linked in my previous post. That is not to say that social conditioning doesn't also play a role, but evidence is now accepted in the scientific community that hormonal influences are a factor in gender identity formation. Much additional research remains to be done.
I don't think anyone is disputing a strong biological component. Strong components can influence an outcome but don't determine an outcome. There's also the fact that male/female, what those terms mean, is largely socially constructed, and if they're mere constructions then they can be reconstructed.
Is there evidence that gender is largely socially constructed? I know it is common to claim it is so, but it seems to me that the claim is never substantiated. At least the claim for a biological basis is on solid evidence-based scientific footing.

Om mani padme hum
Kathy
I for one do hope that gender identity, (at least binary male/female gender identities) can be shown to have a biological cause. If we could establish definite markers we might be able to be more confident of early needs to transition and hopefully lessen later dysphoria.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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justsit wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 5:22 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:56 pm Yes, that is a semantic distinction. I confess a lot of these notions strike me as more cultural/philosophical than scientific. I do definitely agree that one not need understand or agree with any theory in particular to support trans rights though.
You might find this study interesting. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677266/. The subject of brain chemistry related to gender identification has attracted quite a lot of interest in the past ten years or so, and more and more data appears to confirm differences in male and female brains structure and function. Lots more research is needed before solid conclusions can be reached, but right now it is pointing at the possibility of a physiological basis for transgender expression.
Yeah, I have always assumed this is true, and is possibly also true wrt to sexual preference.

I think where I get lost is that on the one hand there are people who claim to be “gender fluid” and change genders all the time, often citing that gender is entirely socially constructed, which is kind of nonsensical. Things that are socially constructed often have biological conditions as a strong contributing factor anyway.

It seems on the hand I hear how these things are “social constructs”…except when they are not.

I want to say here this is for me a conversation about some stuff I’ve seen that doesn’t make sense to me, and is no way some claim about “the trans lobby” trying to nefariously influence kids or any nonsense like that.

There is really disgusting legislation being pushed all over the country now in this conspiratorial vein and I just want to make clear that while I really don’t get some of the gender ideas I see, I am fully against such bills and the politics they represent.

Normally I wouldn’t feel the need to qualify it like that but meh…just read about some of the bills being pushed through out there. Forcing kids to use the restroom of their sex a birth etc.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

KathyLauren wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 10:30 pm
Is there evidence that gender is largely socially constructed? I know it is common to claim it is so, but it seems to me that the claim is never substantiated. At least the claim for a biological basis is on solid evidence-based scientific footing.
This is why I mentioned whether one’s experience of identity is based on externals or whether it is simply felt internally (or course, it depends on the person).

Externally means that we perceive particular patterns or behaviors within a group of people and feel some connection with that experience. For instance, a male who feels a strong sense of identity with everything he perceives as being intrinsically female.

Internally means…well, again, it’s sort of like when you have the flu, and you just feel it as your entire state of being. It’s not like you see other people who are sick and think that you have a connection with that. It isn’t based on any external perceptions.

An example of externally based identity: From a very young age (3 yrs maybe?) I have felt a strong connection to Chinese culture (and to a lesser extent, Japanese culture). In many ways, I actually feel more at home in Taiwan than in the United States, where I was born and raised. I love reading and speaking the language, and so on.
I figure this comes from a previous life, and I pretty much let it go at that. I don’t try to appear Asian. I would never consider getting facial surgery or anything like that. What would one call that? Trans-ethnic? Trans -cultural? Cultural misappropriation?

So, as much as I may feel on the inside “this is me, this is who I really am”, it’s still based on external perceptions.
But, if I had never heard of or been exposed to Chinese people and culture, I can’t say that I would identify the experience I feel as Chinese.

But if there is something inside of a person that they just can’t avoid “being”, that’s different. For example, some artists are like that. They started drawing when they were toddlers and it has nothing to do with any other artist, or the attraction to some imagined bohemian lifestyle or whatever. It’s just an incessant need to create. So, this would be an example of some sense of self that is internally driven.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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One reported post and the few posts that were quoting it had to be removed.
I believe, this discussion is more fruitful and interesting without tenacious homophobic comments. Please, whoever feels the urge to submit such posts, ask yourself before what you really know about the matter. Thanks.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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boda wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 12:01 am
droogiefret wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 11:42 pm
boda wrote: Tue Apr 12, 2022 8:36 pm

Rather it seeks to destabilize categories like gender in order to undermine the oppressive status quo (straight white male). Based on postmodernism but not strictly postmodern because no "ideology" can be postmodern.



You just said that you don't understand it, yet you're not a fan?
Well you can't sit on the fence forever can you? Opinions start to form even if they change as knowledge grows.
Why not? We can support trans activism but, for instance, be against propaganda techniques that it may use. We can appreciate the value of conservatism while still striving for progress and social justice. We don't need to take a damn side.
I think you are misjudging my position. But it doesn't matter. Let's move on.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 2:01 am I think where I get lost is that on the one hand there are people who claim to be “gender fluid” and change genders all the time, often citing that gender is entirely socially constructed, which is kind of nonsensical. Things that are socially constructed often have biological conditions as a strong contributing factor anyway.
I don't fully understand gender-fluid or other non-binary states myself. What I do understand, from talking to gender-fluid people, is that their gender identity does not change: they are gender-fluid. That is their gender identity, and it is constant. What changes day to day is their gender expression, and in some cases their gender role.

A friend of mine is gender-fluid, specifically bi-gender. They present as male on some occasions and as female on others. They do not claim to "be" male or female, or that their gender identity changes. They are quite aware that they have a consistent gender identity, which is bi-gender. It is their gender expression that changes.

Biologically, non-binary identities are just examples of the fact that nature never divides things neatly into categories. There are always in-between states that do not fit into our categories. In the case of the genitals, there are male, female, and intersex. In the case of genetics, there are XX, XY, XXY, XYY, XXYY, and numerous other variations.

In the case of gender identity, there are several areas of the brain that appear to govern it. Each one of those areas could have male, female, and in-between states, or the multiple areas might not agree on their identities. So there is nothing unusual or inconsistent about a biological basis for gender identity, including non-binary identities.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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Identity is not a biological thing, but a cultural one. There might be (and often are, I think) some biological factors contributing to identity, but identity itself is not biological. I guess we could term it a social response to biological factors.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I remember when gender fluid was
something you or your partner
would grab a towel for.
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 4:06 pm Identity is not a biological thing, but a cultural one. There might be (and often are, I think) some biological factors contributing to identity, but identity itself is not biological. I guess we could term it a social response to biological factors.
Well, what exactly does “identity” define?
I used the example of having the flu. In that situation, one thinks, “I am a sick person”.
How is this different than thinking, “I am a male/female person”?
One might argue that identity includes a sense of permanence. But if that were the case, would one be able to “identify” as a ‘healthy male’ or ‘healthy female’?
What if one identifies as a living person? Everyone does, yet we all know it is temporary.

I would argue that ultimately, when you really break it all down, at any moment, our self-experience at that moment is our identity, and only occurs as it is replicated moment to moment by causes and conditions (otherwise we are asserting an intrinsically existent “self”).

This is why I ask, what is your identity when you are ordering a pizza?
It’s sort of like the zen question, “what is your original face before your parents were born?”

Outside of the mind, where can identity be found?
And outside of the present moment, where can mind be found?
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yes, identity is identification with something[i/].
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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:34 pm Well, what exactly does “identity” define?
...
Outside of the mind, where can identity be found?
And outside of the present moment, where can mind be found?
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 7:59 pm Yes, identity is identification with something.
"Identity" is something that a person recognizes as an accurate description of themselves. A person can identify as many things. I identify as a Canadian, as a taxpayer, as a retiree, as a woman, as a sound & light tech at the theatre. All are accurate descriptions of me. It could be accepted and discussed on those terms.

It goes without saying (!) that "me" is insubstantial, without inherent existence, lacking a permanent self, etc., etc., and that those identities, too, are therefore insubstantial. This is a Mahayana forum, so it can be presumed that we all already know this, to some degree.

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Re: Innate sense of self and gender identity

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

KathyLauren wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 8:56 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Apr 13, 2022 5:34 pm Well, what exactly does “identity” define?
"Identity" is something that a person recognizes as an accurate description of themselves. A person can identify as many things. I identify as a Canadian, as a taxpayer, as a retiree, as a woman, as a sound & light tech at the theatre. All are accurate descriptions of me. It could be accepted and discussed on those terms.

It goes without saying (!) that "me" is insubstantial, without inherent existence, lacking a permanent self, etc., etc., and that those identities, too, are therefore insubstantial. This is a Mahayana forum, so it can be presumed that we all already know this, to some degree.

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Kathy
Sorry, I wasn’t clear. Yes, I understand the definition of the word. What I meant was, to break down and examine what is really going on in a person’s mind when they identify with something. What the process of identity really comes down to. Saying “I’m a Buddhist”, for example. Buddhist is a concept. So, saying I’m a concept.
And what I was getting at is that maybe a person is identifying with concepts (which may or may not simply be social stereotypes), or whether what a person is experiencing is really kind of beyond “identity” altogether, as in the example of being ill, or when you stub your toe, or even something more on the positive side, like feeling extremely happy. In that situation, you really feel it in you, and it’s not about comparing how you feel happy with how society defines feeling happy.

It sounds like I’m contradicting my earlier statement, when I suggested that each moment is one of identity.
To clarify, what I mean is, each moment is how we truly identify ourselves, but it’s automatic. It lies outside of labels and definitions.
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