Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

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whippoorwill
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Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by whippoorwill »

Forgive me if this is a dumb question - I am a beginner.

Fivefold Mahamudra seems to be the centerpiece of Drikung practice. I'm pretty sure they also practice the Six Yogas, right? Are these somehow folded into Fivefold Mahamudra, or presented as a discrete system of their own, or a bit of both? Any insight into the way the two categories relate would be most helpful!
Natan
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Natan »

They are one big system that can be taken as separate systems as well. There is stand alone FFPM and standard tantric Chakrasamvara and 6YN.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In the introduction to “Creation and Completion”, the translator makes the point (pg 17?) that in Mahamudra the winds enter the central channel on their own. So it isn’t discussed.

Alternately you can approach the same outcome from the other direction. If you’re able to yogically force the winds into the central channel Mahamudra will automatically happen.

So both methods are completion stage practice.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Best to find a teacher for this
whippoorwill
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by whippoorwill »

Konchog Thogme Jampa wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 5:41 pm Best to find a teacher for this
Yes. To be clear, I would never attempt to practice these things without instruction. I’m just trying to get a sense of how this lineage sees the Path.
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

They’re two very different approaches completion stage. The 6Y approach is more dangerous in that bad things can happen if done improperly. Mahamudra is much more gentle. However both need a qualified teacher and basic Mahayana orientation.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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conebeckham
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by conebeckham »

The Drikung's position is that, in general, one should first be instructed in, and practice, Mahamudra--to ascertain Ordinary Mind, or Nature of Mind, etc. and then the Six Yogas are skillful means to deepen and enhance one's experience.

In general, this is also the way other Kagyu lineages teach things, too. But there was (and is) a position that the Six Yogas on their own are the best, most powerful means for recognizing and enhancing recognition for the right sort of student.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Natan
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Natan »

conebeckham wrote: Fri Apr 08, 2022 4:56 pm The Drikung's position is that, in general, one should first be instructed in, and practice, Mahamudra--to ascertain Ordinary Mind, or Nature of Mind, etc. and then the Six Yogas are skillful means to deepen and enhance one's experience.

In general, this is also the way other Kagyu lineages teach things, too. But there was (and is) a position that the Six Yogas on their own are the best, most powerful means for recognizing and enhancing recognition for the right sort of student.
Pachung Rinpoche taught a specific lineage. This isn't it.
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bryandavis
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by bryandavis »

Just to add for discussions sake:

Chetsang Rinpoche, and many of the drikung retreat masters today pass on Khyunga Rinpoches lineage. Short bio linked below

https://www.drikungkc.org/kyunga-sodpa-gyatso-rinpoche

The Lama Yuru center in Laddhak, Previsouly Almora in India. Pithoragarh, in India, and Chino valley, in Arizona follow the system of Five fold path fist, with Mahamudra being introduced in one way or another, then six yogas as the "enhancement."

Pachung Rinpoches main lineage holder was Drubwang Rinpoche. In turn Nupa Rinpoche and Khenpo Konchok Tashi are two of his main lineage holders. Khenpo Konchok Tashi arranged for his retreat students to follow the method of the five fold path, and then six yogas.

Would be curious as to another way Pachung Rinpoche passed on his retreat transmission.

:cheers:
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bryandavis
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by bryandavis »

To edit my above post:

After Khyunga Rinpoche began leading retreats again, during the second group he led, he passed away when the group was about to start the six yogas section. So Drupon Sonam Jorphel was the lineage bearer of the six yogas for that group. That group included H.H. Chetsang Rinpoche, Drupon Chamspa Rigzin, Drupon Samten (in san Diego,) and I think Drupon Ozer who is in Chile now.
Natan
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by Natan »

bryandavis wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:50 am Just to add for discussions sake:

Chetsang Rinpoche, and many of the drikung retreat masters today pass on Khyunga Rinpoches lineage. Short bio linked below

https://www.drikungkc.org/kyunga-sodpa-gyatso-rinpoche

The Lama Yuru center in Laddhak, Previsouly Almora in India. Pithoragarh, in India, and Chino valley, in Arizona follow the system of Five fold path fist, with Mahamudra being introduced in one way or another, then six yogas as the "enhancement."

Pachung Rinpoches main lineage holder was Drubwang Rinpoche. In turn Nupa Rinpoche and Khenpo Konchok Tashi are two of his main lineage holders. Khenpo Konchok Tashi arranged for his retreat students to follow the method of the five fold path, and then six yogas.

Would be curious as to another way Pachung Rinpoche passed on his retreat transmission.

:cheers:
Yeshi Rinpoche is still alive and led retreat at Almora as well, a Pachung disciple. My lama did his retreat there with him. It was FFP/Chakrasamvara and Six Yogas. Mahamudra was taught near the end during fire pujas, is what he said. I had a chance to receive teachings on Six Yogas from Yeshi Rinpoche. In true practice lineage fashion his advice was to stick to the method. He gave no fancy answers, just do it, was his advice. One got a powerful feeling just hearing his voice. He affected me a lot. I'm still dealing with those days. After his transmissions my lama, I still call him my lama, said he's not my lama anymore, that we became vajra brothers. With some of these high practice lamas one might only get a few minutes to speak to them in one's life. They say a few words and it means everything. So unusual.

Apparently, because I learned it this way, there's a lineage of CoEmergent Mahamudra that Pachung Rinpoche taught. It has sort of two prongs, one is Ganga Mahamudra and the other has FFP elements. It should be like this... Gets thrown out. High and low ideas and paths are totally out.
Last edited by Natan on Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bryandavis
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by bryandavis »

Gelog yeshi Rinpoche was drupon rinchen dorjes retreat master who leads chino valley,.az retreats.
lhaksam.dorje
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Re: Drikung Fivefold Mahamudra & the Six Yogas of Naropa

Post by lhaksam.dorje »

Crazywisdom wrote: Sun Apr 10, 2022 6:07 pm
bryandavis wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:50 am Just to add for discussions sake:

Chetsang Rinpoche, and many of the drikung retreat masters today pass on Khyunga Rinpoches lineage. Short bio linked below

https://www.drikungkc.org/kyunga-sodpa-gyatso-rinpoche

The Lama Yuru center in Laddhak, Previsouly Almora in India. Pithoragarh, in India, and Chino valley, in Arizona follow the system of Five fold path fist, with Mahamudra being introduced in one way or another, then six yogas as the "enhancement."

Pachung Rinpoches main lineage holder was Drubwang Rinpoche. In turn Nupa Rinpoche and Khenpo Konchok Tashi are two of his main lineage holders. Khenpo Konchok Tashi arranged for his retreat students to follow the method of the five fold path, and then six yogas.

Would be curious as to another way Pachung Rinpoche passed on his retreat transmission.

:cheers:
Yeshi Rinpoche is still alive and led retreat at Almora as well, a Pachung disciple. My lama did his retreat there with him. It was FFP/Chakrasamvara and Six Yogas. Mahamudra was taught near the end during fire pujas, is what he said. I had a chance to receive teachings on Six Yogas from Yeshi Rinpoche. In true practice lineage fashion his advice was to stick to the method. He gave no fancy answers, just do it, was his advice. One got a powerful feeling just hearing his voice. He affected me a lot. I'm still dealing with those days. After his transmissions my lama, I still call him my lama, said he's not my lama anymore, that we became vajra brothers. With some of these high practice lamas one might only get a few minutes to speak to them in one's life. They say a few words and it means everything. So unusual.

Apparently, because I learned it this way, there's a lineage of CoEmergent Mahamudra that Pachung Rinpoche taught. It has sort of two prongs, one is Ganga Mahamudra and the other has FFP elements. It should be like this... Gets thrown out. High and low ideas and paths are totally out.
Thanks for the post crazywisdom. Very beneficial.
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