Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

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Ejō
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Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Ejō »

Hello everyone, this is my first post on this website, so I hope you'll forgive my ignorance if variations of these questions have been asked before or if this isn't an appropriate venue for them and that I should ask my questions on the Zen forum instead.

I've been a lay follower of Sōtō Zen for a good number of years now and practice mostly solo (as there are no sangha's near me). In the past 3 years or so I have developed a real affection for Pure Land Buddhism and have informally been chanting the Nembutsu as well as the Pure Land Sutras - which I find to be stunningly beautiful. This created no sense of dissonance for me as after all Uchiyama Roshi himself (and the wonderful Sōtō monk/poet Ryōkan) chanted the Nembutsu too! My understanding of Amida Buddha & the Nembutsu have up until recently been exclusively Zen, drawn from Kōshō Uchiyama Roshi and to a lesser extent Kōdō Sawaki Roshi's writings on the subject, for example:
In other words, this small I is embraced by the immeasurable and boundless Amitabha Buddha. This has nothing to do with my small, limited thoughts of whether I think it is so or not. It does not depend on whether I believe it or not. I am, in fact, embraced and saved by the immeasurable and boundless Amitabha. Being thankful for this, I chant Namu Amida Butsu. When we say this with our mouths, we are expressing our deep sense of gratitude. When we perform it with our whole body, it is zazen as the activity of the reality of life, the zazen of believing and sitting. When people of the Pure Land school chant Namu Amida Butsu, they are doing zazen with their mouths, and when we do zazen, we are performing Namu Amida Butsu with our whole body.
In recent weeks however, I've been looking into the writings of the Pure Land schools themselves and I have become very impressed and moved in particular by the teachings of Shōkū Shonin (who might have been Dōgen's adopted elder brother!) and the Seizan branch of Jōdo Shū as well as the ideas found in the Anjin Ketsujō shō - which I believe itself originated from the Seizan branch and which is fast becoming one of my favourite Buddhist texts. So much of what I have read (which to be fair isn't a huge amount as resources are not so common in English and my Japanese isn't good enough to fully access the Japanese materials) seem strikingly similar to Dōgen Zenji's completely non-dualistic approach that so defines Sōtō Zen practice. For example Dōgen's comment that:
When you let go of your body and mind and forget them completely and you throw yourself into the Buddha’s abode, then everything is done from the side of Buddha and you just follow along without effort or anxiety – you break free from life’s suffering and are Buddha yourself. How can you then have any hindrance in your mind
reminds me very much of Shōkū Shonin's teachings about the settled mind (anjin) that results from letting go of all self-power actions and realising that Amida's Buddhahood and one's own awakening are absolutely identical etc. Likewise Dōgen's view that Zazen is the natural expression of Buddha Nature seems so similar to Shōkū's view that the Nembutsu is the very realisation of Amida's and thus our own, enlightenment.

As I view Amida Buddha the way Dōgen views Buddha Nature i.e the total functioning of all reality, and the Pure Land as synonymous with awakening (and not so much a 'place' where we go) that can be realised right now (similar to sokuben ōjō perhaps?) and perhaps even more so after death (similar to Tōtoku ōjō perhaps?), I feel that my understanding would probably be outside of what Jōdo Shū - either the Chinzei or Seizan branches' - would view as acceptable understandings on the subject. That and the fact that I struggle with Pure Land teachings about 'loathing this world' etc mean that I think I more naturally fit with Sōtō Zen, but nevertheless I really want to continue to deepen my knowledge of Jōdo Shū, I think by reading Hōnen Shonin next, and increase my engagement with Nembutsu.

However I am feeling conflicted somehow, as if drawing more on Pure Land teachings themselves is somehow incompatible with my following Sōtō Zen and that perhaps it isn't right of me to not commit exclusively to one thing or another.

What I guess I'm asking is: 1) are my views way outside the Pure Land mainstream? And 2) Has anyone else got experience either as a Jōdo Shū (Seizan or Chinzei) follower (or as a Pure Land follower more generally) of incorporating teachings and practices from other schools of Buddhism, and if so how do you integrate them in an organic and not disjointed way?

I'm really sorry for this very long post and especially for the rambling nature of it. I guess writing this was, in part, to help me try and make sense of what I've been thinking and contemplating which is still rather jumbled in my mind

Thank you for your patience if you read through all of this and thank you in advance for any responses. Gassho. Namu Amida Butsu.
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Astus
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Astus »

Pure Land and Chan have been practised together for many centuries in China, Korea, and Vietnam. Here are some readily available works that can introduce you to how it's done (you might start with the third one's (Dialogs with Ancient Masters) first chapter to clarify some doubts):

Buddhism of Wisdom & Faith: Pure Land Principles and Practice (a modern summary)
Pure Land of the Patriarchs (teachings by a Chan master)
Pure Land Buddhism: Dialogs with Ancient Masters (teachings by Tiantai founder Zhiyi and a Chan master)
Pure-Land Zen, Zen Pure-Land (letters by a modern Pure Land master)
Pure Land, Pure Mind (teachings by Chan masters)
Taming the Monkey Mind - A Guide to Pure Land Practice (various methods of buddha-remembrance)
Mind-Seal of the Buddhas (Amitabha Sutra commentary)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Just say the Nembutsu, practice Zazen

No big deal :juggling:
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Zhen Li
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Zhen Li »

Ejō wrote: Wed Mar 30, 2022 7:37 pm What I guess I'm asking is: 1) are my views way outside the Pure Land mainstream? And 2) Has anyone else got experience either as a Jōdo Shū (Seizan or Chinzei) follower (or as a Pure Land follower more generally) of incorporating teachings and practices from other schools of Buddhism, and if so how do you integrate them in an organic and not disjointed way?
Nembutsu Kōan is not really found in the Pure Land mainstream, as far as I have seen—most attempts to synthesise the two practices are coming from the Zen/Chan side. I was a Chan-Pure Land practitioner for 10 years before moving to Jōdo Shinshū. There, the practices are disjointed. You sit zazen when you wake up privately or in the meditation hall on retreat days; you recite the Amidakyō and Nembutsu in the assembly, or with your mouth throughout the day.

How they are integrated, I think, depends on 1) your teacher's instructions and on 2) your own consideration in your mind. If you have a teacher who instructs you to do Nembutsu Kōan, that would be a way to integrate them directly, but otherwise, I don't know of a non-disjointed approach to practice (unless we are talking about consideration in your mind, which is what Kōdō Sawaki Roshi is talking about). If you are practising by yourself, then probably you have more freedom in developing an integrative method.

How and whether they are related, in my opinion, comes down to how you understand both practices in relation to Buddha Nature. Dōgen and Shinran's understanding of Buddha Nature and naturalness are pretty close, in my opinion. "Loathing the world," in Shinran's approach, is just further realising our being embraced by Amida—the more the ice, the more the water.
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明安 Myoan
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

:good: :good: Good posts above.

You can bring the mind you have to nembutsu. Sincerity of heart is a key point for many Pure Land masters.

Nuances can be found among Honen's disciples who spread his message after his passing. Check out "Traversing the Pure Land Path" for more about Honen's followers.

In the Jodo Shu approach, a difference can be found in the way one pursues the Mahayana Vow (to save all sentient beings from samsara).
In Zen and Mahayana generally, one accumulates merit and wisdom in order to attain buddhahood, hopefully in this very human body.
In Jodo Shu, one returns to the mind of an ordinary, ignorant person who, with a sincere heart, seeks birth in Amida Buddha's land. Honen said that this naturally leads to the Three Minds and Four Modes of Practice in this life. These are attitudes and activities which support continuous practice (Five Right Practices), as well as a lifetime of friendship with Amida Buddha (the intimate karmic relationship).

Whether or not one applies Jodo Shu's classification system of the Two Gateways, which would put practices such as zazen into those to be set aside until one's birth is assured, this depends on one's affinity for the teachings of Shantao and Honen.
I also think every Jodo Shu follower has to decide what it means to "make our lifestyles supportive of nembutsu" as Honen said.
As time passes, I see more of my activities as supports for nembutsu.

Related to "Loathing this defiled world of suffering" -- it is strong language. I also wasn't sure how to take it for a long time.
I think it's a teaching of renunciation, like the Eight Sufferings or the First Noble Truth: it motivates us to practice because we don't usually see our situation as being asleep in ignorance, in a house on fire, crossing a flooded road.

Renunciation doesn't include renouncing virtue: Shantao and Honen said we should perform good and reject evil as much as we can. Likewise, sentient beings aren't renounced because we attain birth in the Pure Land in order to save all sentient beings.

Reading through Astus's recommendations would be an excellent thing.
I came to Jodo Shu because of an interest in Amitabha Buddha.
I then found the school that nurtured my connection with the Buddha over time, given my strengths, weaknesses, life.
A broad familiarity with Pure Land Buddhism helped this process immensely.
Namu Amida Butsu
Ejō
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Ejō »

Thank you everyone, I'm very grateful for all your responses. I shall certainly be reading through the links you have provided and giving thought to all that you have said.
Vert
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Vert »

Ejō wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:03 am Thank you everyone, I'm very grateful for all your responses. I shall certainly be reading through the links you have provided and giving thought to all that you have said.
The Japonese Zen school Ōbaku mixes Pure Land with Zen in their practice quite strongly. Historically the Obaku is sometimes referred to as the "Nenbutsu Zen" school — a pejorative characterization intended to describe its use of Zen and Pure Land practices
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cbaku
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by ronnymarsh »

In China, for example, all Buddhists recite the name of Amida, just as they practice silent sitting meditation, and Chinese Buddhist understanding is essentially Ch'an/Zen. Similarly, the practice of Japanese Tendai Buddhism is to chant nembutsu, but this school's understanding of Buddhism is quite different from the Zen concept and also the Pure Land concept (although the Japanese Pure Land school is a derivation of Tendai thought).

However, there is something you need to consider:

In the Pure Land school, both the Jodo Shu and Shinshu branches, the fundamental basis is the concept of Mappo. That is, we who are currently born are people who, according to the Sutras, are not in a position to attain enlightenment. So Sukhavati and Buddha Nature, in the thinking of schools, are NOT the same thing.

It is not just Buddha Nature that is needed to attain enlightenment. This nature is like a land where a plant is born. It is only possible for the plant to be born and grow if there is also a seed, and if it is cared for so that it has nourishment, sunlight, water, etc.

We who were born in Mappo have Buddha nature, but we don't have the seed of enlightenment.

In Buddhist sutras, since the Agamas/Nikayas, the enlightenment process always starts with this topic: "Finding a Good Friend". This good friend is basically your "spiritual master," a Dharma master who has received the teaching and authority of another Dharma master in a lineage that goes all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha.

The problem is that in Mappo this lineage no longer exists. The Pure Land schools follow the Tendai lineage: Shakyamuni passed on the Dharma heritage for 24 generations, until Simhaboddhi was murdered without fully passing on the Dharma.

When the 24th heir passes away, Shakyamuni's lineage is lost, and no one can establish a true relationship with a true good friend, and therefore, no one can access the seeds of enlightenment anymore. So in the era of the end of Dharma, a person can perform any practice but he would not be able to reach the sublime stage or even the most elementary ones.

The only way for someone born in the Mappo era to achieve enlightenment would be by establishing a relationship with another Buddha, and it is from this conception that Honen Shonin established the basic principles of this school, based on Shan-tao and the three Pure Land Sutras.

In the Greater Sutra we have contact with Amida's original vow, which promises that anyone who invokes his name will be taken to his pure land. Thus, the practice of Japanese Pure Land schools is to recite the nembutsu so that they are reborn in Sukhavati, and there they can establish a relationship with Amida, the good friend, have the seed planted in their consciousness, develop it and achieve enlightenment.

The schools of Zen, however, do not agree with the traditional view of Shakyamuni's lineage. These schools (and only these) believe that after Simhabodhi the Dharma lineage continued with Vasiasita, then Punyamitra, then Prajnatara who transmitted it to Bodhidharma. This one would have gone to China and there he transmitted the Dharma until arriving in Huineng (or Shenxiu, depending on the tradition), and this lineage would still be active every day, under each Zen patriarch.

So for Zen(Ch'an) there is still the possibility of attaining enlightenment in this lifetime and at that time. The way of interpreting the three ages of dharma is different from what other schools understood, and the place that Amida Buddha plays in the system is totally different from the Tendai understanding.

So whether or not you are out of place depends on your position on this Mappo issue, on the validity of the Shakyamuni lineage argument, and on your reflection on the reality of the fruit of the practice.

Currently, in people being reborn in Sukhavati? Are people reaching any of the four stages of enlightenment in the Agama teaching? Has anyone achieved any of the 52 Bodhisattva stages in the gradual mahayana teaching? Has anyone attained anuktara-sayak-sambodhai in mayahana teaching suddenly? Has anyone attained Enlightenment in the present form by Mikkyo or the Lotus Sutra?

In view of all this, you can make an analysis and observe the validity of the arguments in relation to Mappo.

Respectfully _/|\_

But, in addition, a personal observation: you can do both, zazen and recite in the name of Buddha together, having an understanding according to Zen or Pure Land teaching.

As I said at the beginning, Chinese Buddhism follows the Zen (Chan) understanding, but the practice is not exclusive, they recite both Nianfo (Nembustu) and sit in silent meditation.

And in the realm of Japanese Pure Land Buddhism, you can have the Jodo Shinshu approach that has the most open practice. Shinran was a disciple of Honen, and therefore had the same philosophical approach as Buddhism and realization, however unlike the Jodo Shu lineages, Shinran did not focus on the Nembutsu but on the Faith (shinjin).

For Shinran, practice is the Shinjin in the original vow, reciting Nembustu is just one manifestation of this faith, but not the only one. If you sit in Zazen as an expression of faith in the other power, this is the same as reciting nembutsu (one who is mute, for example, cannot recite the name, but can have faith, sitting silently with faith in Amida Buddha is the same practice this person does).

What will differentiate your religious affiliation, in these cases, is your understanding of the themes I mentioned.
Zenkonin
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Re: Sōtō Zen, the Nembutsu & Jōdo Shū?

Post by Zenkonin »

ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Jul 12, 2022 6:52 pm In China, for example, all Buddhists recite the name of Amida, just as they practice silent sitting meditation, and Chinese Buddhist understanding is essentially Ch'an/Zen. Similarly, the practice of Japanese Tendai Buddhism is to chant nembutsu, but this school's understanding of Buddhism is quite different from the Zen concept and also the Pure Land concept (although the Japanese Pure Land school is a derivation of Tendai thought).

However, there is something you need to consider:

In the Pure Land school, both the Jodo Shu and Shinshu branches, the fundamental basis is the concept of Mappo. That is, we who are currently born are people who, according to the Sutras, are not in a position to attain enlightenment. So Sukhavati and Buddha Nature, in the thinking of schools, are NOT the same thing.

It is not just Buddha Nature that is needed to attain enlightenment. This nature is like a land where a plant is born. It is only possible for the plant to be born and grow if there is also a seed, and if it is cared for so that it has nourishment, sunlight, water, etc.

We who were born in Mappo have Buddha nature, but we don't have the seed of enlightenment.

In Buddhist sutras, since the Agamas/Nikayas, the enlightenment process always starts with this topic: "Finding a Good Friend". This good friend is basically your "spiritual master," a Dharma master who has received the teaching and authority of another Dharma master in a lineage that goes all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha.

The problem is that in Mappo this lineage no longer exists. The Pure Land schools follow the Tendai lineage: Shakyamuni passed on the Dharma heritage for 24 generations, until Simhaboddhi was murdered without fully passing on the Dharma.

When the 24th heir passes away, Shakyamuni's lineage is lost, and no one can establish a true relationship with a true good friend, and therefore, no one can access the seeds of enlightenment anymore. So in the era of the end of Dharma, a person can perform any practice but he would not be able to reach the sublime stage or even the most elementary ones.

The only way for someone born in the Mappo era to achieve enlightenment would be by establishing a relationship with another Buddha, and it is from this conception that Honen Shonin established the basic principles of this school, based on Shan-tao and the three Pure Land Sutras.

In the Greater Sutra we have contact with Amida's original vow, which promises that anyone who invokes his name will be taken to his pure land. Thus, the practice of Japanese Pure Land schools is to recite the nembutsu so that they are reborn in Sukhavati, and there they can establish a relationship with Amida, the good friend, have the seed planted in their consciousness, develop it and achieve enlightenment.

The schools of Zen, however, do not agree with the traditional view of Shakyamuni's lineage. These schools (and only these) believe that after Simhabodhi the Dharma lineage continued with Vasiasita, then Punyamitra, then Prajnatara who transmitted it to Bodhidharma. This one would have gone to China and there he transmitted the Dharma until arriving in Huineng (or Shenxiu, depending on the tradition), and this lineage would still be active every day, under each Zen patriarch.

So for Zen(Ch'an) there is still the possibility of attaining enlightenment in this lifetime and at that time. The way of interpreting the three ages of dharma is different from what other schools understood, and the place that Amida Buddha plays in the system is totally different from the Tendai understanding.

So whether or not you are out of place depends on your position on this Mappo issue, on the validity of the Shakyamuni lineage argument, and on your reflection on the reality of the fruit of the practice.

Currently, in people being reborn in Sukhavati? Are people reaching any of the four stages of enlightenment in the Agama teaching? Has anyone achieved any of the 52 Bodhisattva stages in the gradual mahayana teaching? Has anyone attained anuktara-sayak-sambodhai in mayahana teaching suddenly? Has anyone attained Enlightenment in the present form by Mikkyo or the Lotus Sutra?

In view of all this, you can make an analysis and observe the validity of the arguments in relation to Mappo.

Respectfully _/|\_

But, in addition, a personal observation: you can do both, zazen and recite in the name of Buddha together, having an understanding according to Zen or Pure Land teaching.

As I said at the beginning, Chinese Buddhism follows the Zen (Chan) understanding, but the practice is not exclusive, they recite both Nianfo (Nembustu) and sit in silent meditation.

And in the realm of Japanese Pure Land Buddhism, you can have the Jodo Shinshu approach that has the most open practice. Shinran was a disciple of Honen, and therefore had the same philosophical approach as Buddhism and realization, however unlike the Jodo Shu lineages, Shinran did not focus on the Nembutsu but on the Faith (shinjin).

For Shinran, practice is the Shinjin in the original vow, reciting Nembustu is just one manifestation of this faith, but not the only one. If you sit in Zazen as an expression of faith in the other power, this is the same as reciting nembutsu (one who is mute, for example, cannot recite the name, but can have faith, sitting silently with faith in Amida Buddha is the same practice this person does).

What will differentiate your religious affiliation, in these cases, is your understanding of the themes I mentioned.
Ronny,

This was, to be honest, very inspiring explanation. Thank you very much for that. Personally, I practice both Jodo Shinshu and Sotoshu. I find it complementary to each other.

I would like to post only this:

''There is a popular notion permeating the world regarding zazen and nembutsu (reciting the name of Amida Buddha): Once you experience satori through Zen meditation or experience a settled mind through chanting Amida Buddha it is as though a red light has turned green and you become completely refreshed, and the feeling never changes. I have to say that talk like this is nothing more than a fairytale.

I say this based on the person I am today, having fancied myself from youth as a reporter on the quest for myself, practiced zazen from age thirty up to my early sixties and having chanted Amida Buddha from my mid-sixties. So the reporting I am presenting is from my Zen practice and my nembutsu chanting. Reporting from the experience of actual practice is quite different from that which so many people have drawn their conclusions up to now.

----

The same phenomenon occurs with the practice of nem­butsu. you recite the nembutsu hoping to be embraced by the peaceful mind of Amida Buddha. in most cases, before you realize it, your recitation continues with your mouth as a result of a kind of inertia. however, your thoughts fly here and there like a wild horse or a monkey. you have to arouse the Way-seeking mind countless times, returning over and over to your natural state, simply reciting the nembutsu.

Whether we are referring to the practice of zazen or the recitation of the nembutsu, it is a big mistake to think that the practice will open up in you a special state of mind or a unique environment. The reality is that anyone truly involved in one of the practices will at least realize there isn’t any special state of mind. To the contrary, if you think there is a special state of mind, you are involved in nothing more than the creation of delusion.

-------
So there is no need to trouble yourself over the proper effect of zazen. Just dive in and sit, or recite the nembutsu. At that time, if you practice zazen, the world of zazen will open to you, and if you recite the nembutsu, the world of nembutsu will open to you, in a clarity in which your personal thoughts will have no meaning. That is what we call shikantaza (just sitting) or “other power” nembutsu (the nembutsu that doesn’t come from your thoughts). At any rate, spending time in the practice of this kind of zazen or nembutsu recitation for a little while is without a doubt a splendid activity for us.''

These excerpts are from Arthur Braverman's translation of Kosho Uchiyama Roshi Sensei, and in his words:
''The following is my translation of two chapters on meditation from Advice From Zen, a book of Uchiyama Roshi’s responses to students’ questions, transcribed and edited by one of his chief disciples, Rev. Shusoku Kashiya. The book was written for a Japanese audience, and, except for these chapters, has not been translated into English. In translating the text, I have followed Uchiyama’s advice as he talked about his own translations of Dogen’s writings. Rather than attempt a literal rendering, I have translated it according to my understanding of his words and the meaning behind those words. I tried to make use of my years of listening to Roshi’s teachings and the many questions I asked him myself when I trained at Antaiji in the 1970s.''

The link to the article is here: https://www.lionsroar.com/zazen-that-am ... o-nothing/
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