Kensho or dissociation?

[tomdzogchen27]

I generally practice Shikantaza or focusing on the breath. Someone suggested that I could try out a meditation in which I asked the question "Who am I" and see what came up. I decided to give it a go. Then all of the pain of the body (which is usually vividly present, due to chronic pain) vanished. A feeling of not being localized in the head so much. Almost as if the body was floating on the zafu. And peace, bliss and quiet. No thoughts popping up.

But when I finished the meditation and went back to everyday life, I started to regain that sense of pain in the body (which felt more intense than before the meditation), I had a bit of a headache and my overall anxiety was higher. Since I have a history with trauma (not PTSD), I wonder, could this be some positive experience and should I move forward with this form of practice, or is this dissociation?
Feel free to ask questions if needed to clarify. Thank you.

[reiun]

I generally practice Shikantaza or focusing on the breath. Someone suggested that I could try out a meditation in which I asked the question "Who am I" and see what came up. I decided to give it a go. Then all of the pain of the body (which is usually vividly present, due to chronic pain) vanished. A feeling of not being localized in the head so much. Almost as if the body was floating on the zafu. And peace, bliss and quiet. No thoughts popping up.

But when I finished the meditation and went back to everyday life, I started to regain that sense of pain in the body (which felt more intense than before the meditation), I had a bit of a headache and my overall anxiety was higher. Since I have a history with trauma (not PTSD), I wonder, could this be some positive experience and should I move forward with this form of practice, or is this dissociation?
Feel free to ask questions if needed to clarify. Thank you.

Please don't hurt yourself! A/your Zen teacher and an MD (or MH professional) both would be appropriate to consult with.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It’s a common experience I think. Practicing shamatha (for instance focus on the breath) calms the mind and body. Sometimes there is a kind of “backdraft” once the mind starts moving again. Perhaps talk to your teacher about how to apply instructions off the cushion.

[Pablo]

I have experienced similar things when practicing with the breath. I wouldn't call this kensho, no. I have no experience with disassociation, perhaps talk to your doctor if you suspect this could be a symptom of your trauma history showing up. As reiun says, take care of yourself!

Asking "who am I?" is a powerful method, but one where you should get proper guidance (at least in the beginning, for sure). If you want to try this out further, I can recommend some good teachers for this.

[KeithA]

I generally practice Shikantaza or focusing on the breath. Someone suggested that I could try out a meditation in which I asked the question "Who am I" and see what came up. I decided to give it a go. Then all of the pain of the body (which is usually vividly present, due to chronic pain) vanished. A feeling of not being localized in the head so much. Almost as if the body was floating on the zafu. And peace, bliss and quiet. No thoughts popping up.

But when I finished the meditation and went back to everyday life, I started to regain that sense of pain in the body (which felt more intense than before the meditation), I had a bit of a headache and my overall anxiety was higher. Since I have a history with trauma (not PTSD), I wonder, could this be some positive experience and should I move forward with this form of practice, or is this dissociation?
Feel free to ask questions if needed to clarify. Thank you.

Can't comment too much, as this is the Rinzai forum, and I am not a Rinzai person. But, I would definitely discuss this with a teacher who is familiar with the practice. My personal practice is raising the hwadu "what am I?'". It's not an "on the cushion" only practice. But, I will let someone with Rinzai experience comment on that.

_/|\_
Keith

[seeker242]

I'm sure it would not be considered kensho under Rinzai, or any sect really. Kensho mean seeing true nature, rather than just feeling something good. Some comments about it from Meido Roshi, a Rinzai teacher.

Kensho: seeing [one's] nature. Satori: to understand or realize.
Not sure if the following can or will generate much discussion. But it's something important worth pondering, I think.
Namely: what most people believe to be kensho just isn't. As I observe in the West, many - perhaps most - people who believe they've entered the gate of kensho, and have even been passed by their teachers, actually have not.
And even genuine insights that are passed in the sanzen room can often be extremely minor, just "baby kensho" if you will. They often fall far short of the decisive entrance into awakening upon which Zen practice ultimately rests, and which was signified in the past by the words "kensho" and "satori."

Most of the accounts of kensho in books that we read in the modern era are also actually not kensho at all: they are common (though seemingly powerful and liberating) experiences that arise with the deepening of meditation, for example the experience of dissolution, of "having no self", of oneness with one's surroundings, or even oneness with the universe. (I believe this is reason that there is such conflation also of Advaita and similar teachings with Buddhadharma in the West).

This is not to say such experiences are without value. Or that small insight is not genuine, and possibly useful. And we have to admit that it is perhaps not uncommon for laypersons to be treated more gently at times, in order to encourage them. On the other hand, it is also not uncommon for something like a koan to be given too soon, and passed too soon...and this is the fault of teachers, some of whom are not able to guide from genuine experience.
There are many texts that lay out common illusory states at which one may arrive in meditation. (Note: "illusory" not meaning bad, just not to be clung to as things of import, or as any kind of fruition). Torei's Shumon Mujintoron is excellent for this, for example. Both he and Hakuin also wrote openly about their experiences, and it is extremely useful to read these things in order to compare one's own.

But that does not mean it has to be "dissociation" either. It just sounds like you had a pleasant meditation experience, which is a good thing. If a practice makes you feel calm and peaceful, there is no reason to not continue doing it.

[Ayu]

... , I wonder, could this be some positive experience and should I move forward with this form of practice, or is this dissociation?
...

Because you are able to remember the state of mind, the feelings, how you got there and how you left it, it cannot count as a pathological form of dissociation, I believe.
Some therapies use soft and gentle forms of dissociation in order to get results like you gained here without a high bill for the doctor.

I don't know anything about Rinzai, therfore I can't give any advice on your practice. But from the POV of traumatherapy, I believe you found a good tool. Maybe not forever, not for doing it alone, but so far, I think it's good.

I once suffered from severe pain for 8 month. Dissociating from the pain and breathing was a saving tool for a while for me. But real help was an assembled therapy of hypnomeditation and heavy back massages by a physiotherapist.

[anjali]

I generally practice Shikantaza or focusing on the breath. Someone suggested that I could try out a meditation in which I asked the question "Who am I" and see what came up. I decided to give it a go. Then all of the pain of the body (which is usually vividly present, due to chronic pain) vanished. A feeling of not being localized in the head so much. Almost as if the body was floating on the zafu. And peace, bliss and quiet. No thoughts popping up.

But when I finished the meditation and went back to everyday life, I started to regain that sense of pain in the body (which felt more intense than before the meditation), I had a bit of a headache and my overall anxiety was higher. Since I have a history with trauma (not PTSD), I wonder, could this be some positive experience and should I move forward with this form of practice, or is this dissociation?
Feel free to ask questions if needed to clarify. Thank you.

As others have suggested, please speak with your teacher, if you have one. FYI, I'm not a Rinzai practitioner either. So...

In my opinion, the "Who am I?" practice is for insight, and is a form of what some have called "turning the light around and taking the backward step": seeking to see the luminous, empty nature of oneself. The phrase is not essentially different than some other famous phrases, such as, "Who is dragging this corpse around?", and "What was my original face before I was born?"

The peace, bliss, and thought quiessence is good, but then use that quiet to see your true nature. Don't stress over the anxiety. If, with consultation with a teacher, you decide to continue the practice, one way to proceed is to ask, "Who is the experiencer of this anxiety?", and continue with your huatou.

Just some thoughts for you to consider. Honestly, I'd take them with a grain of salt.