Question about experience

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yinyangkoi
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Question about experience

Post by yinyangkoi »

I was sitting and staring at the wall. Suddenly, the wall disappeared, but not the image of the wall, but the idea of there being a wall. It was really completely nothing there, yet there was the white wall. But it was completely nothing, like, nothing at all was there. But I still saw the wall. I just can't say it, there was the white wall but it was nothing there. Only white wall was there, nothing else, only the image of white wall, there was literally nothing else, I can't explain it. There was no me or you or anything just the wall. At this moment, all that existed was the white wall, but only the image, there was no idea of it being a wall. Also it only lasted a split second, but even in this split second it was the best moment of my life and I immediately tried to repeat it but couldn't do it. It was like nothing is there, but at the same time the moment felt completely complete. What does this mean? Is that satori? How can I become white wall again?
yinyangkoi
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Re: Question about experience

Post by yinyangkoi »

There was just nothing there even though the wall was there. But it was so beautiful, I have never experienced something like this. The most beautiful experience. Everything was gone, completely gone, but at the same time so completely complete you could not make it more complete. It was nothing but the nothingness was everything at once but also nothing at once. I could cry just thinking about it how beautiful this was. So beautiful it's unbelievable. Sadly it was only for a split second

I asked my zen master but he wouldn't or couldn't give me a clear answer what exactly happened, he just said to let it go and don't hold it, return to the present
master of puppets
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Re: Question about experience

Post by master of puppets »

I am not an expert.

but according to one thing what I've learned here from PadmaVonSamba is,

it is a mind trick

everything which you could not continue is mind trick.

everything out of full satori.

I don't know the content of a mind trick.

It may as well show a glimpse of your potential.

my advice forget it.

return to the world.



This is a world where all wishes come through.

May all wishes come through!

🙏🏻
Last edited by master of puppets on Sat Mar 26, 2022 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Question about experience

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I have heard this advice given regarding these kind of meditation experiences:

If the experience motivates you to continue to practice, then it’s a valuable experience.
But don’t try to repeat it. That’s a distraction. Meditate new each time.
And the fact that it came and went, that’s a lesson right there, about impermanence.
If you can let go of it but still keep it, I think that’s called an accomplishment. In other words, keep it in your heart (memories) a valid experience that you have had, but let go of it so that it doesn’t keep you from going even further in your practice.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: Question about experience

Post by reiun »

Your teacher offered you everything you needed. The rest is up to you alone.
Pablo
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Re: Question about experience

Post by Pablo »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:08 am What does this mean?

You saw a wall. Do you want it to mean anything else?
Is that satori?

If you have to ask, it isn't. Do you need someone else to give a label to what you experienced?
How can I become white wall again?
You can't. The wall is gone. Let it go.
I asked my zen master but he wouldn't or couldn't give me a clear answer what exactly happened, he just said to let it go and don't hold it, return to the present

It seems you don't like the answer your teacher gave you (why else would you be writing here?).

Do you think he has not understood or valued what you went through? If so, maybe try explaining again. What is it you need from him?

The teacher-student relationship is based on mutual trust. If you don't trust your teacher, maybe you should ask yourself what is going on. Are you too attached to your experience and will not accept anything until you feel validated? Or is it something else? Why did you need to ask this question on a public forum, instead of going to him again?
yinyangkoi
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Re: Question about experience

Post by yinyangkoi »

Pablo wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:54 pm You saw a wall. Do you want it to mean anything else?
Well I am not directly talking about the wall.
If you have to ask, it isn't. Do you need someone else to give a label to what you experienced?
it would be helpful to know. Why does it mean if I have to ask, it isn't. Imagine you never saw an apple before, only heard from it in stories. Then one day you saw a strange fruit, wouldn't you ask if it was an apple? How are you supposed to know
It seems you don't like the answer your teacher gave you (why else would you be writing here?).

Do you think he has not understood or valued what you went through? If so, maybe try explaining again. What is it you need from him?

The teacher-student relationship is based on mutual trust. If you don't trust your teacher, maybe you should ask yourself what is going on. Are you too attached to your experience and will not accept anything until you feel validated? Or is it something else? Why did you need to ask this question on a public forum, instead of going to him again?
I actually first posted on the forum before I asked him. I didn't want to disturb him, so I posted here. I think on this forum there are many wise people. I asked here because I wanted to share the experience and maybe someone had a similar experience. I think the teacher understood it was a special experience, but he said it's not so important and I should not hold onto it. I think that's great advice.
Pablo
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Re: Question about experience

Post by Pablo »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:33 pm
Pablo wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:54 pm You saw a wall. Do you want it to mean anything else?
Well I am not directly talking about the wall.

My point is, what is it that wants this experience to mean something special?
it would be helpful to know. Why does it mean if I have to ask, it isn't. Imagine you never saw an apple before, only heard from it in stories. Then one day you saw a strange fruit, wouldn't you ask if it was an apple? How are you supposed to know

Satori means awakening. In Zen, this usually means seeing through the fundamental delusion that there is a separate self. If you experience that, you don't need someone else to tell you, or give it a name. You know. So, if you have to ask, no, it's not it.

In any case, you mention it was just a split second. In my lineage, satori is not something that comes and goes, or that you enter and come out of. Maybe others have a different opinion.
I actually first posted on the forum before I asked him. I didn't want to disturb him, so I posted here. I think on this forum there are many wise people.
It's so strange to me that you would go to a forum of internet strangers instead of talking to your teacher about this experience, but maybe I'm just weird. If it was truly satori, it would be your teacher's role to confirm it, not an online forum.
I think the teacher understood it was a special experience, but he said it's not so important and I should not hold onto it. I think that's great advice.
I think so, too.

Better to let it go completely and keep on with your practice.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Question about experience

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:33 pm Imagine you never saw an apple before, only heard from it in stories. Then one day you saw a strange fruit, wouldn't you ask if it was an apple? How are you supposed to know
That’s an interesting point.
I ate something spicy today.
It was like nothing I have ever tasted.
Please tell me what it was!

When one meditates, one’s head goes all kinds of places it never has before. If it was a meaningful experience and inspires you to keep practicing, then just be happy with that. But as your teacher says, don’t cling to it. Our perception is all dream-like to begin with. Any experience is either more dream, or waking from the dream. Only you can figure out which direction it is, because you’re the only one having your dream.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Miorita
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Re: Question about experience

Post by Miorita »

It means to stop grasping at yourself because there is no self.
Matylda
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Re: Question about experience

Post by Matylda »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:08 am I was sitting and staring at the wall. Suddenly, the wall disappeared, but not the image of the wall, but the idea of there being a wall. It was really completely nothing there, yet there was the white wall. But it was completely nothing, like, nothing at all was there. But I still saw the wall. I just can't say it, there was the white wall but it was nothing there. Only white wall was there, nothing else, only the image of white wall, there was literally nothing else, I can't explain it. There was no me or you or anything just the wall. At this moment, all that existed was the white wall, but only the image, there was no idea of it being a wall. Also it only lasted a split second, but even in this split second it was the best moment of my life and I immediately tried to repeat it but couldn't do it. It was like nothing is there, but at the same time the moment felt completely complete. What does this mean? Is that satori? How can I become white wall again?

Generally if one thinks it could be some significant experience one has to check it with a teacher. You did it, right? Another thing is that if there is a chance of kensho etc. then there are checking questions, and they may show the clarity of insight or just another form of makyo, or just good experience. But it does not prove kensho etc. Another possibility is that one had some experience, but not clear enough and a teacher would say whatever fits the student which means just continue the effort of proper zazen according to the strict instruction without any personal opinion or self made ways and methods.
Finally comes the question about teacher`s qualification, i.e. it means if he or she has clear eye of satori. There are not many teachers like this I would say just a few. Or maybe less than few.

For example Hakuin was a great zen master and when disciple had kensho he gave some difficult koans to answer, just on the spot, and if disciple was not clear, or answers were not satisfying he would not give his approval.

And the last thing. It is probably one of the worst ideas to discuss such personal experiences on the Internet`s forum with strangers. It is generally forbidden in zen to discuss such things among practitioners of the same group, since it destroys very effectively ones practice.
master of puppets
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Re: Question about experience

Post by master of puppets »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:06 am
yinyangkoi wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 7:33 pm Imagine you never saw an apple before, only heard from it in stories. Then one day you saw a strange fruit, wouldn't you ask if it was an apple? How are you supposed to know
That’s an interesting point.
I ate something spicy today.
It was like nothing I have ever tasted.
Please tell me what it was!

When one meditates, one’s head goes all kinds of places it never has before. If it was a meaningful experience and inspires you to keep practicing, then just be happy with that. But as your teacher says, don’t cling to it. Our perception is all dream-like to begin with. Any experience is either more dream, or waking from the dream. Only you can figure out which direction it is, because you’re the only one having your dream.
Thank you. (You're) being like a road sign for me; besides precious information.

you know couldn't know what comes where mostly.yet this is another topic ..


🙏
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seeker242
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Re: Question about experience

Post by seeker242 »

yinyangkoi wrote: Sat Mar 26, 2022 8:08 am What does this mean? Is that satori?
It just means you had an interesting, pleasant and beautiful meditation experience.
How can I become white wall again?
How can everything "drop away" again when you are intentionally holding onto "How" and "I become" and "white wall" and "want to" and "again". That's a lot of stuff! Holding onto all that stuff is the exact opposite of anything "dropping away".
let it go and don't hold it, return to the present
Darn good advice as that is how it may happen again, because that's how it happened the first time. :meditate: :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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