The Future of American Buddhism

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Norwegian
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Norwegian »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:12 pm Yankee Doodle Dharma. Come on. The US is not the only open society or the only democracy. There are almost 3 billion people living in democracies. I do not sympathize with this patriotism. It's silly.
Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
Sure let's ignore the huge amount of work that was done for transmitting buddhadharma to the west in Germany, Austria, France, Great Britain, Italy, Australia... :coffee:
And yet, America has a ton of centers and places of Buddhist interest. A huge amount of Buddhist teachers either permanently resides in America, or often travels to America. It is a powerhouse when it comes to Buddhist presence. This doesn't mean that other countries cannot be open societies or cannot be democracies, or doesn't have a Buddhist presence. But to try to reduce America as "just another country" or just even as "not that important" when it comes to Buddhism in the Western world, is particularly strange.

When I started looking for dots to connect in order to figure out Buddhism 22 years ago, when I got online, as where I lived had nothing Buddhist of any kind, I found that virtually every single source of information that helped me, had American origins. So websites for example. News sites. Book stores (SnowLion, Shambhala, Wisdom, Namse Bangdzo, etc.). And when I found online communities, be they discussion places or chat rooms, they were heavily dominated by Americans, easily 90% or more. The people who I got to know early on were all Americans. All of the interesting teachings, transmissions, and empowerments were given in America.

America is a very important country for Buddhism.
Malcolm
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:12 pm Yankee Doodle Dharma. Come on. The US is not the only open society or the only democracy. There are almost 3 billion people living in democracies. I do not sympathize with this patriotism. It's silly.
Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
Sure let's ignore the huge amount of work that was done for transmitting buddhadharma to the west in Germany, Austria, France, Great Britain, Italy, Australia... :coffee:
The most credit here goes to the English, then the French, etc. However, my point still stands.
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:12 pm Yankee Doodle Dharma. Come on. The US is not the only open society or the only democracy. There are almost 3 billion people living in democracies. I do not sympathize with this patriotism. It's silly.
Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
The French Revolution was instrumental. We have England to thank for spreading English over the world. India is a full democracy and it's the largest one with 1,3 billion, thanks to Gandhi. So you're Yankee Doodle Dharma fetish is just odd. But if you think this will be the best thing for Dharma in the history of dharma great. Folks are doing fine in Spanish and Portuguese as well. US people are sort of infamous for being arrogant about "America." Why should a Yankee Dharma dude be any different. Older men often swerve conservative and patriotic in old age. Even my dad had Rush Limbaugh on. Maybe it has something to do with clinging to an identity and a legacy as death approaches. You're numbers are just wrong though. If India is not a democracy to you then I am sorry but you're biased. Besides, most of the worlds democracies are parliamentary, which many argue is purer form of democracy. American representative democracy is sort of an odd man out.
Last edited by Natan on Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:30 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
Sure let's ignore the huge amount of work that was done for transmitting buddhadharma to the west in Germany, Austria, France, Great Britain, Italy, Australia... :coffee:
And yet, America has a ton of centers and places of Buddhist interest. A huge amount of Buddhist teachers either permanently resides in America, or often travels to America. It is a powerhouse when it comes to Buddhist presence. This doesn't mean that other countries cannot be open societies or cannot be democracies, or doesn't have a Buddhist presence. But to try to reduce America as "just another country" or just even as "not that important" when it comes to Buddhism in the Western world, is particularly strange.

When I started looking for dots to connect in order to figure out Buddhism 22 years ago, when I got online, as where I lived had nothing Buddhist of any kind, I found that virtually every single source of information that helped me, had American origins. So websites for example. News sites. Book stores (SnowLion, Shambhala, Wisdom, Namse Bangdzo, etc.). And when I found online communities, be they discussion places or chat rooms, they were heavily dominated by Americans, easily 90% or more. The people who I got to know early on were all Americans. All of the interesting teachings, transmissions, and empowerments were given in America.

America is a very important country for Buddhism.
I agree. This is true. But that's economic. I'm not sure why we have to join this with the idea America invented democracy.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

Used to belong to us anyway that’s why they speak English

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_America
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Americans dislike Buddhists the most.

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/america ... buddhists/
Malcolm
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 8:12 pm Yankee Doodle Dharma. Come on. The US is not the only open society or the only democracy. There are almost 3 billion people living in democracies. I do not sympathize with this patriotism. It's silly.
Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
The French Revolution was instrumental. We have England to thank for spreading English over the world.
France didn't manage to become a full democracy for a hundred years after the revolution. Napoleon put the wrench in that. Nevertheless, the French Revolution was responsible for gelling some of the ideas we equate with liberal democracy today, that is a historical fact.
India is a full democracy and it's the largest one with 1,3 billion, thanks to Gandhi.
India is not a full democracy. It is considered a flawed democracy.

So you're Yankee Doodle Dharma fetish is just odd. But if you think this will be the best thing for Dharma in the history of dharma great. Folks are doing fine in Spanish and Portuguese as well.

There is a deficit of books translated into Portuguese and Spanish.
If India is not a democracy to you then I am sorry but you're biased.
India, as mentioned above, is a flawed democracy. It is dominated by a political party (BJP) that espouses Hindu nationalism (Hindutva), and regularly institutes discriminatory policies towards Muslims and other religious minorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Malcolm
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:58 pm I agree. This is true. But that's economic. I'm not sure why we have to join this with the idea America invented democracy.
What we understand today as "democracy" was forged in the fire of the American revolution. Essentially, all states have systems of transferring power. Democracy, like Monarchy, etc., is just one of those systems. It also happens to be the rarest form of government in history. One thing you will notice is that liberal democracies never invade or fight wars with other liberal democracies. Liberal democratic countries tend to stick together.

My argument is simple-- liberal democracy in general is the ideal government under which Dharma can flourish. That does not mean that we have to have elections in sanghas, etc. It just means that liberal democracies are places where Buddhists enjoy the most freedom. This is very clear when you examine the state of Buddhism in the world today.
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Konchog Thogme Jampa
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »


My argument is simple-- liberal democracy in general is the ideal government under which Dharma can flourish. That does not mean that we have to have elections in sanghas, etc. It just means that liberal democracies are places where Buddhists enjoy the most freedom. This is very clear when you examine the state of Buddhism in the world today.
It’s true in England too you can be a convert to Buddhism no problem more or less.

I had a British Moroccan friend when I got into Tantra I told him he said he’d like to do that but there would be uproar in his Muslim Community.

So the only way he could practice is under strict secrecy.

I think it also helps what class you are too. If you are working class in England you would have a hard time from people being a convert. Middle Class are welcome because they have money to donate but tend to go for Dharma Lite which fits in with their ethos. I’m Lower Middle Class which is the most fluid in terms of being a Buddhist in England.
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:24 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 2:44 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
The French Revolution was instrumental. We have England to thank for spreading English over the world.
France didn't manage to become a full democracy for a hundred years after the revolution. Napoleon put the wrench in that. Nevertheless, the French Revolution was responsible for gelling some of the ideas we equate with liberal democracy today, that is a historical fact.
India is a full democracy and it's the largest one with 1,3 billion, thanks to Gandhi.
India is not a full democracy. It is considered a flawed democracy.

So you're Yankee Doodle Dharma fetish is just odd. But if you think this will be the best thing for Dharma in the history of dharma great. Folks are doing fine in Spanish and Portuguese as well.

There is a deficit of books translated into Portuguese and Spanish.
If India is not a democracy to you then I am sorry but you're biased.
India, as mentioned above, is a flawed democracy. It is dominated by a political party (BJP) that espouses Hindu nationalism (Hindutva), and regularly institutes discriminatory policies towards Muslims and other religious minorities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
The BJP was elected. It's a grassroots movement. Not that I like it anymore than I like the Evangelical takeover of the USA. But the US puts religious fanatics on the Supreme Court who are undermining separation of church and state. The US is also considered a flawed democracy. Or did you forget Bush v Gore and the entire Trump era which is not over. As if the US doesn't discriminate. The US is a racial caste system and discriminates against religious minorities. I am a religious minority and I experienced hell in the USA. So your rose colored glasses just to prove a point is ridiculous.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... se-new-low
Last edited by Natan on Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Queequeg
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Queequeg »

Well. All I can say is we have the Freedoms and Advantages here. Hope you all, wherever you are, do, too. I look forward to a robust flowering of Dharma around the world, to see the variety of blossoms from the different soils.

I do feel fortunate to be an English speaking middle class American. The affluence allows the leisure that Dharma requires. The linguistic pool is broad and deep with the concatenating effects that such shared language with free expression among so many minds promotes.

Is conceivable that these Freedoms and Advantages will fade. For now, I am grateful to have them.
Last edited by Queequeg on Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Shinjin
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Shinjin »

Nobody really cares much about Dharma where I live except for a few immigrant communities. Mainly Vietnamese and Chinese.

I suspect it is like this in most american cities. I don't see it having much of a future.
Last edited by Shinjin on Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:05 pm Well. All I can say is we have the Freedoms and Advantages here. Hope you all, wherever you are, do, too. I look forward to a robust flowering of Dharma around the world, to see the variety of blossoms from the different soils.
In a lot of ways there's a lot more freedom in Brazil. Many Americans and Europeans that come here say the same. You can really get into Vajrayana in a place like this, Colombia, Argentina, etc., Because it's passionate, lush and firey. It's wild and chaotic. Unlike the USA which is so super boring snorrrrrreeeee.
Last edited by Natan on Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Queequeg
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Queequeg »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:13 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:05 pm Well. All I can say is we have the Freedoms and Advantages here. Hope you all, wherever you are, do, too. I look forward to a robust flowering of Dharma around the world, to see the variety of blossoms from the different soils.
In a lot of ways there's a lot more freedom in Brazil. Many Americans and Europeans that come here say the same. You can really get into Vajrayana in a place like this, Colombia, Argentina, etc., Because it's passionate, lush and firey. It's wild and chaotic. Unlike the USA which is so super boring snorrrrrreeeee.
Personally, just the thought of Latin passion exhausts me. LOL
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Natan
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Natan »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:13 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:05 pm Well. All I can say is we have the Freedoms and Advantages here. Hope you all, wherever you are, do, too. I look forward to a robust flowering of Dharma around the world, to see the variety of blossoms from the different soils.
In a lot of ways there's a lot more freedom in Brazil. Many Americans and Europeans that come here say the same. You can really get into Vajrayana in a place like this, Colombia, Argentina, etc., Because it's passionate, lush and firey. It's wild and chaotic. Unlike the USA which is so super boring snorrrrrreeeee.
Personally, just the thought of Latin passion exhausts me. LOL
It's exhausts everyone, but in a good way. Lol.
Malcolm
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 4:59 pm The US is also considered a flawed democracy.
No, it isn’t, though it’s true that our institutions have taken some hits recently. That just makes it all the more important to give a voice in support of it.

Elections don’t make a democracy. It’s how power is transferred that defines a democratic state.
Malcolm
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:13 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:05 pm Well. All I can say is we have the Freedoms and Advantages here. Hope you all, wherever you are, do, too. I look forward to a robust flowering of Dharma around the world, to see the variety of blossoms from the different soils.
In a lot of ways there's a lot more freedom in Brazil.
Lawlessness, or weak law enforcement is often equated with “freedom.” Mexico is also more “free.” But these are countries where men rule, rather than laws.
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Queequeg
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Queequeg »

Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:31 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:23 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 5:13 pm

In a lot of ways there's a lot more freedom in Brazil. Many Americans and Europeans that come here say the same. You can really get into Vajrayana in a place like this, Colombia, Argentina, etc., Because it's passionate, lush and firey. It's wild and chaotic. Unlike the USA which is so super boring snorrrrrreeeee.
Personally, just the thought of Latin passion exhausts me. LOL
It's exhausts everyone, but in a good way. Lol.
LOL :twothumbsup:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
KristenM
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Location: California

Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by KristenM »

Norwegian wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 10:30 pm
Könchok Thrinley wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:29 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 14, 2022 9:25 pm

Our country, like it or not, is the founding nation of modern, liberal democracy. The international language of Buddhism is now English, not the English of the Crown, but American English.

Only 6.4 percent of the world population live in full democracies; that's only 21 countries and just over 500 million people. 66% of those people live in the USA, with the other 24 percent spread around the other 20 countries. The best chance Buddhism has is in these 21 countries, which have adopted the principles of liberal democracy, courtesy of the American Revolution. The vast majority of those democracies are less than 150 years old.
Sure let's ignore the huge amount of work that was done for transmitting buddhadharma to the west in Germany, Austria, France, Great Britain, Italy, Australia... :coffee:
And yet, America has a ton of centers and places of Buddhist interest. A huge amount of Buddhist teachers either permanently resides in America, or often travels to America. It is a powerhouse when it comes to Buddhist presence. This doesn't mean that other countries cannot be open societies or cannot be democracies, or doesn't have a Buddhist presence. But to try to reduce America as "just another country" or just even as "not that important" when it comes to Buddhism in the Western world, is particularly strange.

When I started looking for dots to connect in order to figure out Buddhism 22 years ago, when I got online, as where I lived had nothing Buddhist of any kind, I found that virtually every single source of information that helped me, had American origins. So websites for example. News sites. Book stores (SnowLion, Shambhala, Wisdom, Namse Bangdzo, etc.). And when I found online communities, be they discussion places or chat rooms, they were heavily dominated by Americans, easily 90% or more. The people who I got to know early on were all Americans. All of the interesting teachings, transmissions, and empowerments were given in America.

America is a very important country for Buddhism.
So, when are you going to come over and enjoy a backyard barbecue with us commoners across the pond? Or have you been to the US already? :)
Norwegian
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Re: The Future of American Buddhism

Post by Norwegian »

KristenM wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 12:29 am So, when are you going to come over and enjoy a backyard barbecue with us commoners across the pond? Or have you been to the US already? :)
Hopefully that can happen in the near future!
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