Someone go tell DJKR

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
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zerwe
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by zerwe »

PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:33 am
zerwe wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:25 am Yes, he absolutely ruffles feathers and there is some shock value to what he puts out there on social media, etc...Maybe it is overly generous, but I think that he seems at times to use "shock value" to make us examine our own minds and our own biases. I have found things that DJKR wrote made me feel, well uncomfortable, but I was willing to try to explore why.
This very quickly becomes the Dharma version of "hey, I'm just asking questions..." when done in a very public setting, because you're talking to a very diverse range of views in the audience. Being provocative has a place, but that place is in an individual discussion with one person.
If I remember correctly, his initial posts about Ukraine, to me, seemed to really be a message about equanimity, the danger of choosing flags, the danger of choosing sides, how ordinary people suffer at the hands of world leaders bound by their own ego minds, etc... Another sometimes confusing popular figure (who places himself in the radical liberal camp--I personally don't have a problem with that) with the same message is Roger Waters. With that said, DJKR also isn't the only dharma teacher I have run into with a similar view on Ukraine. Now, glancing at his page, it seems that he has engaged at a whole other level on this topic.
You're doing Waters a bit of a disservice by not explaining his view in full. He is a life-long pacifist and anti-war campaigner. His statements on this war reflect this, but he is absolutely clear about the moral culpability for this:
“I am disgusted by [Russian President Vladimir] Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, it is a criminal mistake in my opinion, the act of a gangster. There must be an immediate ceasefire. I regret that Western governments are fueling the fire that will destroy your beautiful country by pouring arms into Ukraine, instead of engaging in the diplomacy that will be necessary to stop the slaughter. ... I will do anything I can to help effect the end of this awful war in your country, anything that is except wave a flag to encourage the slaughter. That is what the gangsters want, they want us to wave flags
Note that Waters (a) identifies who is the aggressor, and (b) condemns the aggression. I think in this regard his statements are far superior to DJK's on this topic.
As has been previously posted, much of his internet postings have been focused on western hegemony and how we should butt out of Asian matters--specifically his letter about Aung Suu Kyi and the West. Again, I feel that it forces us westerners to think about a different perspective.
"Asian" is a Western idea in the first place. It's a massive simplification of huge cultural differences. Nobody would think a Dane culturally similar to an American, but the differences between countries in Asia are far greater than that. Does he think, for instance, that a South Korean has moral authority to have opinions on, say, Bangladesh, in a way that a Norwegian doesn't? His statements on these issues are extremely simplistic and haven't really progressed past Lee Kuan Yew circa 1990. His letter to Aung Sang Suu Kyi was terrible - he was (a) trying to assert himself as an authority on "Asianness", and (b) presuming to advise someone who runs a country (albeit badly) on how to handle cultural diplomacy. Totally out of his depth. He should leave commentary on this to people who actually know what they're talking about, and focus on the Dharma, on which by all accounts he really does know what he's talking out.


Perhaps I should not have used Waters as an example. I am familiar with what he has said on the matter and agree with his stance.

I feel like with DJKR there are positives and, if it is too far a stretch for people to see those, then maybe just leave it alone.

Shaun :namaste:
Malcolm
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:33 am

"Asian" is a Western idea in the first place. It's a massive simplification of huge cultural differences. Nobody would think a Dane culturally similar to an American, but the differences between countries in Asia are far greater than that. Does he think, for instance, that a South Korean has moral authority to have opinions on, say, Bangladesh, in a way that a Norwegian doesn't? His statements on these issues are extremely simplistic and haven't really progressed past Lee Kuan Yew circa 1990. His letter to Aung Sang Suu Kyi was terrible - he was (a) trying to assert himself as an authority on "Asianness", and (b) presuming to advise someone who runs a country (albeit badly) on how to handle cultural diplomacy. Totally out of his depth. He should leave commentary on this to people who actually know what they're talking about, and focus on the Dharma, on which by all accounts he really does know what he's talking out.
DJKR's has made a number of fallacious historical claims, but perhaps the most telling historical gaffe was the one where he attributed the decline of Buddhism in Japan to Americans after WWII. I pointed out to him that the decline of Buddhism in Japan was a function of the Meiji restoration, where 45k Buddhist temples were destroyed by the Japanese gvt. in the late 19th century, etc.

LKY's problem (among others) is that he thought the US was trying to foist democracy off on everyone. The actual fact is that during the Cold War, that US was saying to countries: "If you want to do business with us, and have access to our markets, you can't do business with the Communists governments. If you decide to implement liberal democracy, so much the better, but at minimum you can't do business with Communists. If your country already has significant access to Western capital investment, and you try to align with the Communists and nationalize our investments in your country, we are going to take your government down and replace it with someone who better aligns with our interests and will protect our capital investments."

The failures in US foreign policy after the Cold War mainly come from this line of reasoning: "Communism will inevitably fail. It failed in Russia and it will fail in China. We should do business with Russia and China based on this assumption. The only thing we have to worry about now are the recalcitrant Muslim countries, who are state sponsors for terrorism. Liberal democracy driven capitalist development is inevitable. Resistance is futile."

The difference is pragmatism. Our Cold War foreign policy was pragmatic, occasionally dressed up in ideology. Our Post-Cold War foreign policy has been ideological, and abandoned pragmatism for slogans.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by PeterC »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:59 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:33 am

"Asian" is a Western idea in the first place. It's a massive simplification of huge cultural differences. Nobody would think a Dane culturally similar to an American, but the differences between countries in Asia are far greater than that. Does he think, for instance, that a South Korean has moral authority to have opinions on, say, Bangladesh, in a way that a Norwegian doesn't? His statements on these issues are extremely simplistic and haven't really progressed past Lee Kuan Yew circa 1990. His letter to Aung Sang Suu Kyi was terrible - he was (a) trying to assert himself as an authority on "Asianness", and (b) presuming to advise someone who runs a country (albeit badly) on how to handle cultural diplomacy. Totally out of his depth. He should leave commentary on this to people who actually know what they're talking about, and focus on the Dharma, on which by all accounts he really does know what he's talking out.
DJKR's has made a number of fallacious historical claims, but perhaps the most telling historical gaffe was the one where he attributed the decline of Buddhism in Japan to Americans after WWII. I pointed out to him that the decline of Buddhism in Japan was a function of the Meiji restoration, where 45k Buddhist temples were destroyed by the Japanese gvt. in the late 19th century, etc.
I guess he also wasn’t aware that the US took Kyoto off the list of target candidates for the nuclear attack because of the damage it would do to Japanese cultural and religious heritage?

He really knows a lot less than he thinks he doesn’t. In his letter to AYSK he said, confidently, that the Rohingya were foreign laborers brought in by the British. They weren’t: they had been living there for a century before the British arrived. Not that he should know that, though. Why should butanese semi-royalty know anything about the demographics and history of a minor country two thousand miles away?

This is why I don’t give much credence to the hypothesis that he’s being deliberately provocative to make people think. There are obvious explanations that better fit the facts.
Malcolm
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:59 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:33 am

"Asian" is a Western idea in the first place. It's a massive simplification of huge cultural differences. Nobody would think a Dane culturally similar to an American, but the differences between countries in Asia are far greater than that. Does he think, for instance, that a South Korean has moral authority to have opinions on, say, Bangladesh, in a way that a Norwegian doesn't? His statements on these issues are extremely simplistic and haven't really progressed past Lee Kuan Yew circa 1990. His letter to Aung Sang Suu Kyi was terrible - he was (a) trying to assert himself as an authority on "Asianness", and (b) presuming to advise someone who runs a country (albeit badly) on how to handle cultural diplomacy. Totally out of his depth. He should leave commentary on this to people who actually know what they're talking about, and focus on the Dharma, on which by all accounts he really does know what he's talking out.
DJKR's has made a number of fallacious historical claims, but perhaps the most telling historical gaffe was the one where he attributed the decline of Buddhism in Japan to Americans after WWII. I pointed out to him that the decline of Buddhism in Japan was a function of the Meiji restoration, where 45k Buddhist temples were destroyed by the Japanese gvt. in the late 19th century, etc.
I guess he also wasn’t aware that the US took Kyoto off the list of target candidates for the nuclear attack because of the damage it would do to Japanese cultural and religious heritage?

He really knows a lot less than he thinks he doesn’t. In his letter to AYSK he said, confidently, that the Rohingya were foreign laborers brought in by the British. They weren’t: they had been living there for a century before the British arrived. Not that he should know that, though. Why should butanese semi-royalty know anything about the demographics and history of a minor country two thousand miles away?

This is why I don’t give much credence to the hypothesis that he’s being deliberately provocative to make people think. There are obvious explanations that better fit the facts.
Yes, I also corrected him on the presence of the Arakanese.

He could have just educated himself on this point:

https://www.soas.ac.uk/sbbr/editions/file64388.pdf

The Burmese have been ruthless in their persecution of the Arakanese since 1784, when they conquered that Arakan Kingdom.

Oh well.
Natan
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:11 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:59 pm

DJKR's has made a number of fallacious historical claims, but perhaps the most telling historical gaffe was the one where he attributed the decline of Buddhism in Japan to Americans after WWII. I pointed out to him that the decline of Buddhism in Japan was a function of the Meiji restoration, where 45k Buddhist temples were destroyed by the Japanese gvt. in the late 19th century, etc.
I guess he also wasn’t aware that the US took Kyoto off the list of target candidates for the nuclear attack because of the damage it would do to Japanese cultural and religious heritage?

He really knows a lot less than he thinks he doesn’t. In his letter to AYSK he said, confidently, that the Rohingya were foreign laborers brought in by the British. They weren’t: they had been living there for a century before the British arrived. Not that he should know that, though. Why should butanese semi-royalty know anything about the demographics and history of a minor country two thousand miles away?

This is why I don’t give much credence to the hypothesis that he’s being deliberately provocative to make people think. There are obvious explanations that better fit the facts.
Yes, I also corrected him on the presence of the Arakanese.

He could have just educated himself on this point:

https://www.soas.ac.uk/sbbr/editions/file64388.pdf

The Burmese have been ruthless in their persecution of the Arakanese since 1784, when they conquered that Arakan Kingdom.

Oh well.
And what did he say in response to you, Malcolm?
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:59 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:33 am

"Asian" is a Western idea in the first place. It's a massive simplification of huge cultural differences. Nobody would think a Dane culturally similar to an American, but the differences between countries in Asia are far greater than that. Does he think, for instance, that a South Korean has moral authority to have opinions on, say, Bangladesh, in a way that a Norwegian doesn't? His statements on these issues are extremely simplistic and haven't really progressed past Lee Kuan Yew circa 1990. His letter to Aung Sang Suu Kyi was terrible - he was (a) trying to assert himself as an authority on "Asianness", and (b) presuming to advise someone who runs a country (albeit badly) on how to handle cultural diplomacy. Totally out of his depth. He should leave commentary on this to people who actually know what they're talking about, and focus on the Dharma, on which by all accounts he really does know what he's talking out.
DJKR's has made a number of fallacious historical claims, but perhaps the most telling historical gaffe was the one where he attributed the decline of Buddhism in Japan to Americans after WWII. I pointed out to him that the decline of Buddhism in Japan was a function of the Meiji restoration, where 45k Buddhist temples were destroyed by the Japanese gvt. in the late 19th century, etc.
To blame America for this as well is just ridiculous. He really needs to educate himself.

If he's interested in this topic (Meiji era Japan, decline of Buddhism, haibutsu kishaku, Japanese nationalism, Japanese xenophobia, etc.), he can start with the following:

Japan in Transition: From Tokugawa to Meiji, edited by Marius B. Jansen and Gilbert Rozman
The Making of Modern Japan, by Marius B. Jansen
The Emergence of Meiji Japan, edited by Marius B. Jansen
Anti-Foreignism and Western Learning in Early-Modern Japan, The "New Theses" of 1825, by Aizawa Seishisai, translated by Bob Tadashi Wakabayashi
Nationalism in Japan, by Delmer Brown
Modern Japan and Shinto Nationalism, by D. C. Holtom
Shinto and the State: 1868-1988, by Helen Hardacre
Shinto in History: Ways of the Kami, by John Breen and Mark Teeuwen
Shinto: A History, by Helen Hardacre
A History of Japanese Religion, edited by Kazuo Kasahara
Of Heretics and Martyrs in Meiji Japan: Buddhism and Its Persecution, by James Ketelaar

This topic is so well-documented, and from so many different angles, that you cannot ignore it, if you have an interest in it.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:35 pm And what did he say in response to you, Malcolm?
Crickets...of course.
Natan
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:36 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:35 pm And what did he say in response to you, Malcolm?
Crickets...of course.
Of.course.
Malcolm
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:22 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:36 pm
Crazywisdom wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:35 pm And what did he say in response to you, Malcolm?
Crickets...of course.
Of.course.
However, he did stop making historical claims that could easily be refuted so...now he just posts other people's bad history, with the old Glen Beck/Tucker Carlson, "Just asking the question..."
Bhumi108w
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Bhumi108w »

This has gone a little too far. How about just not following him? Praise him for the good he has done and just not follow him. But to just keep trash talking someone who has made great contributions, more than all of us combined, for just not agreeing with his political stance is crazy. Not very Buddhist like. Some of y’all need some Vajrasattva in your life!!! Now I will just sit back and wait for the trash talk about me. :popcorn:
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Caoimhghín »

The fact that you think that there's rampant "trash-talking" of him, to me, means that your perspective might be a bit skewed.

Do you think that this post is "trash-talk" of you?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Norwegian
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Norwegian »

Bhumi108w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:13 pm This has gone a little too far. How about just not following him? Praise him for the good he has done and just not follow him. But to just keep trash talking someone who has made great contributions, more than all of us combined, for just not agreeing with his political stance is crazy. Not very Buddhist like. Some of y’all need some Vajrasattva in your life!!! Now I will just sit back and wait for the trash talk about me. :popcorn:
Trash-talking?!

Regarding what a public figure says in public, things that are demonstrably false? No, I'm sorry but I completely disagree. This is not "trash-talking" at all. I don't think you know what that term means.
PeterC
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by PeterC »

Bhumi108w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:13 pm This has gone a little too far. How about just not following him? Praise him for the good he has done and just not follow him. But to just keep trash talking someone who has made great contributions, more than all of us combined, for just not agreeing with his political stance is crazy. Not very Buddhist like. Some of y’all need some Vajrasattva in your life!!! Now I will just sit back and wait for the trash talk about me. :popcorn:
He opened the door to discussion and criticism of his ideas when he started making public statements on controversial topics. What else are we supposed to do? Absorb his wisdom in silence?

Also this is not trash talking. Not even in the same ballpark. And nobody here is disputing his capabilities as a Dharma teacher.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

Bhumi108w wrote: Mon Mar 28, 2022 10:13 pm This has gone a little too far. How about just not following him? Praise him for the good he has done and just not follow him.
It’s constructive criticism. I’d prefer it if major Dharma influencers actually knew what they were talking about when writing letters in support of people like Aung San Su Kyi. It doesn’t mean I don’t recognize his use of his title to benefit the Dharma. But his politics don’t, they detract from his overall message.

As for it not being “Buddhist-like”, you clearly have had very little exposure to Tibetan polemics. Some Tibetans are still pissed at Sakya Pandita for what they perceive as appeasing the Mongols. Get some perspective.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

"O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed. "

Is just kinda how a thing like this is.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Malcolm
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:41 am "O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed. "

Is just kinda how a thing like this is.
Exactly. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by KristenM »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:41 am "O Atula! Indeed, this is an ancient practice, not one only of today: they blame those who remain silent, they blame those speak much, they blame those who speak in moderation. There is none in the world who is not blamed. "

Is just kinda how a thing like this is.
One of my favorite sayings. It really helped me a lot while working for CPS.
Punya
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Punya »

What is most amusing about this thread is how well-informed some of you are on DJKR's political pronouncements (on Facebook). You could just tune out.

Whether he has all the facts or not, maybe one of the points he's making (to his followers) is simply that many of us consume a media diet that reinforces our existing views and we could try stepping outside occasionally.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Toenail »

Punya wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:23 am What is most amusing about this thread is how well-informed some of you are on DJKR's political pronouncements (on Facebook). You could just tune out.

Whether he has all the facts or not, maybe one of the points he's making (to his followers) is simply that many of us consume a media diet that reinforces our existing views and we could try stepping outside occasionally.
He is a public figure. He posts his opinion about things publically. His opinion is uninformed. He himself has stated he loves pissing off liberals etc. Apologetics and justifications by others for him do not really make sense in this context.
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Someone go tell DJKR

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Personally I have just utmost respekt for DJKR. I mean his activities are incredible.
However, I do have to say that I do not really appreciate his edginess. It reminds me so much of all those "anti-communists" that now when we live in still fairly transparent democracy just keep on seeing conspiracies and hidden truths everywhere. It is all fine and dandy to question things and events but there is a line.

All in all it just kind of distracts from his qualities.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

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