Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

jmlee369 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:19 am Tsongkhapa disagreed with the view that different tantra classes were taught for different castes.
So what? This is clearly explained by Sonam Tsemo and others, including Buton.
Varis
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Varis »

tingdzin wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:31 am Further, determined people could certainly practice the purity requirements of the so-called "lower" tantras if they were so inclined, Brahmins or not.
You could also walk from New York to San Francisco. Doesn't make walking the most optimal form of transportation in the 21st century.
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Konchog1
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Konchog1 »

Sādhaka wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:11 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:19 amTsongkhapa disagreed with the view that different tantra classes were taught for different castes.

I’m not sure about his motivation for saying this, however he both criticized Dzogchen (apparently) and recognized Dzogchen as a legitimate Path (apparently) simultaneously; yet I think that we don’t need to take the Caste thing too literally….
I don't know about Dzogchen but Je Rinpoche criticized contemporary Mahamudra practice while teaching Mahamudra, just like how he criticized contemporary Vinaya practice while teaching VInaya. I imagine it was similar with Dzogchen.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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devr
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by devr »

Varis wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:51 am
tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:57 am Bringing in the caste system is just creeping Brahmanism, and not at all appropriate.
Of course it is. Take a moment to consider the requirements of the lower tantras. How many westerners can adhere to the purity rules? For Brahmins it's no biggie, they were raised that way.
I am a Brahmin who is a Vajrayana practitioner. In our times, most Brahmins are Hindus and a substantial subset of which do not actually adhere to purity precepts unless it is a Brahmin that inherits the priest or pandita lineage through family and practices the same precepts. So, I think it is not true most Brahmins are raised to keep purity vows (this is from my personal experience). Also, along the same lines, not all Chhetris (Kshatriyas) are warriors, not all Vaisyas are business people and not all Sudras are goldsmiths, blacksmiths or farmers.
PeterC
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by PeterC »

tingdzin wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:31 am
tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 9:57 am The four fold classification system comes from the Vajramāla tantra, so 9th century.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 15, 2022 2:34 pm The classification of tantras into kriya, carya, and yoga is earlier than Shingon, and is contempoary with Amoghavajra. The mid-eighth century Indian master, Buddhagupta, author of detailed commentaries on the Mahāvairocana Abhisambodhi, was the originator of the three-fold division.
Good to know. However, my point is that these categories are artificial, and which version of which tantra belongs to which class according to whose criteria is often disputed, even among very literate commentators.

To accept the idea that one's birth is in any way determinative of which system should be practiced is, as I said, creeping Brahmanism. Further, determined people could certainly practice the purity requirements of the so-called "lower" tantras if they were so inclined, Brahmins or not. And some of the famous practitioners of the yoginitantras were born into high castes.
The point of the stories of the high-caste practitioners of yoginitantras is that their practices were, from the perspective of their caste, shocking and transgressive. I'm not sure how one could conceive of at least yoginitantra without the framework of the caste system - so much of the symbolism used is linked to concepts of ritual purity and impurity.

It is however indisputable that what made it to Japan and became Shingon is a small subset of what existed in India and/or what made it to Tibet. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Shingon, but there are things that it doesn't possess from the tantric corpus.
Varis
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Varis »

devr wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:10 pm I am a Brahmin who is a Vajrayana practitioner. In our times, most Brahmins are Hindus and a substantial subset of which do not actually adhere to purity precepts unless it is a Brahmin that inherits the priest or pandita lineage through family and practices the same precepts. So, I think it is not true most Brahmins are raised to keep purity vows (this is from my personal experience). Also, along the same lines, not all Chhetris (Kshatriyas) are warriors, not all Vaisyas are business people and not all Sudras are goldsmiths, blacksmiths or farmers.
Yes we live in the degenerate age where everyone acts like Śudras.

The fact still stands: Purity rules, vegetarianism, etc. appeal to the sensibility of Brahmins.
Meat, alcohol, etc. appeal to the sensibilities of Śudras.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
devr
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by devr »

Varis wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:16 am
devr wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:10 pm I am a Brahmin who is a Vajrayana practitioner. In our times, most Brahmins are Hindus and a substantial subset of which do not actually adhere to purity precepts unless it is a Brahmin that inherits the priest or pandita lineage through family and practices the same precepts. So, I think it is not true most Brahmins are raised to keep purity vows (this is from my personal experience). Also, along the same lines, not all Chhetris (Kshatriyas) are warriors, not all Vaisyas are business people and not all Sudras are goldsmiths, blacksmiths or farmers.
Yes we live in the degenerate age where everyone acts like Śudras.

The fact still stands: Purity rules, vegetarianism, etc. appeal to the sensibility of Brahmins.
Meat, alcohol, etc. appeal to the sensibilities of Śudras.
The caste systems were prescribed by rulers according to the vocations, as far as I know, not the individual or collective sensibilities of a particular group or person. That the individuals in certain vocations may be prone to developing certain sensibilities is possible but I don't think Brahmins are any more inherently susceptible to vegetarianism than anyone just because their ancestors practiced priestly vocations that required vegetarianism, alcohol abstinence etc. I have found more vegans and vegetarians in America (casteless?) than in any Brahmin family and friends circle I have known (I have only known one Brahmin family that actually is vegetarian out of all families and people I have known). I am sure things in Saraha's times were different.
Last edited by devr on Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
jmlee369
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by jmlee369 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 4:25 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:19 am Tsongkhapa disagreed with the view that different tantra classes were taught for different castes.
So what? This is clearly explained by Sonam Tsemo and others, including Buton.
In the context of this thread discussing Shingon, we have people stating rather matter of fact from the Tibetan perspective that the lower tantras are not suited for people outside the caste system and lower tantras are less effective during these degenerate times. I am saying there is a mainstream Tibetan tantric perspective that disagrees.
Sādhaka wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 3:11 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:19 amTsongkhapa disagreed with the view that different tantra classes were taught for different castes.

I’m not sure about his motivation for saying this, however he both criticized Dzogchen (apparently) and recognized Dzogchen as a legitimate Path (apparently) simultaneously; yet I think that we don’t need to take the Caste thing too literally….
It is from the Ngagrim Chenmo where Je Rinpoche was discussing the positions of previous masters on why the tantra classes are distinguished, before setting out his own view. In his view Secret Mantrayana as a whole is differs from Paramitayana only in terms of methods (skillful means). Within secret mantra, the classes are differentiated by the primary method used for generating bliss. This is all from memory, so I may be mistaken on some points.
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by tingdzin »

Varis wrote: Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:16 am es we live in the degenerate age where everyone acts like Śudras.

The fact still stands: Purity rules, vegetarianism, etc. appeal to the sensibility of Brahmins.
Meat, alcohol, etc. appeal to the sensibilities of Śudras.
You ought to listen to what devr has to say, as he is clearly speaking from experience, while your framework is clearly based on nothing more than an oversimplified view of the varna and jati system which never existed except in texts.

Assuming that certain castes have certain "sensibilites" is ludicrous. Go live in India for a few years and see if your perspective is the same.

It is also a mistake to think that Sonam Tsemo and Buton had a good grasp of what the varna system was like on the ground. Again, the triumph of theory over observation.
Malcolm
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:23 am It is also a mistake to think that Sonam Tsemo and Buton had a good grasp of what the varna system was like on the ground. Again, the triumph of theory over observation.
Sonam Tsomo had regular contact with Indians due to Sakya’s position on trade routes. It was a major stopping point for Indian masters who were on teaching tours in Western Tibet, as well as Tibetan translators, and like his father and brother, his Sanskrit was good. The second throne holder of Sakya was Bari Lotsawa, who spend some years in India, etc.

The point about the four castes and four divisions of tantra is behavior— each division offers behavior amenable to the mores of a certain type of person. For example, vegans can’t practice HYT, due to meat being a required sacrament, etc.
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by tingdzin »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am Sonam Tsomo had regular contact with Indians due to Sakya’s position on trade routes.
This just means he was getting Indian theory from Indian theoreticians, probably themselves heavily Brahmanized.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am The point about the four castes and four divisions of tantra is behavior— each division offers behavior amenable to the mores of a certain type of person. For example, vegans can’t practice HYT.
OK, of course, but one's disposition and behavior are not set according to the caste one is born into. I really fail to see why Western Buddhists are willing to swallow whole the most un-Buddhist aspects of Indian culture.
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:03 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am Sonam Tsomo had regular contact with Indians due to Sakya’s position on trade routes.
This just means he was getting Indian theory from Indian theoreticians, probably themselves heavily Brahmanized.
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am The point about the four castes and four divisions of tantra is behavior— each division offers behavior amenable to the mores of a certain type of person. For example, vegans can’t practice HYT.
OK, of course, but one's disposition and behavior are not set according to the caste one is born into. I really fail to see why Western Buddhists are willing to swallow whole the most un-Buddhist aspects of Indian culture.
Well, because Tibetans did, including Bonpos. For example, in klu ‘bum texts, the nagas are categorized according to caste: bram ze, rgyal, rje, mamgs, gdol pa, etc.

Also Plato divide society into four castes, and so on.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am
tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:23 am It is also a mistake to think that Sonam Tsemo and Buton had a good grasp of what the varna system was like on the ground. Again, the triumph of theory over observation.
For example, vegans can’t practice HYT, due to meat being a required sacrament, etc.
It seems there are differing opinions on this from my limited understanding. I haven't taken HYT empowerment, but as a vegan myself when I came across some of this information I thought Tibetan Buddhism might not be for me and I should look else where instead of having the tradition change for me. I talked with a few teachers and practitioners and most of them said that meat substitutes can be used. The Karmapa I believe has stopped using meat in ceremonies as well, but I may be wrong.
Malcolm
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am
tingdzin wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 9:23 am It is also a mistake to think that Sonam Tsemo and Buton had a good grasp of what the varna system was like on the ground. Again, the triumph of theory over observation.
For example, vegans can’t practice HYT, due to meat being a required sacrament, etc.
It seems there are differing opinions on this from my limited understanding. I haven't taken HYT empowerment, but as a vegan myself when I came across some of this information I thought Tibetan Buddhism might not be for me and I should look else where instead of having the tradition change for me. I talked with a few teachers and practitioners and most of them said that meat substitutes can be used. The Karmapa I believe has stopped using meat in ceremonies as well, but I may be wrong.
This is a result of undue influence of Chinese Buddhist clients.

Lower tantra practice, however, is vegetarian oriented, and plenty of people in Tibetan Buddhism don’t practice HYT. Arguably Mahamudra practice in the Kagyu and Ganden traditions can be practiced by vegans. But HYT and Nyingma inner tantra cannot be practiced by people with ideological food preferences, no matter how noble their intentions may be.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:21 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:57 am

For example, vegans can’t practice HYT, due to meat being a required sacrament, etc.
It seems there are differing opinions on this from my limited understanding. I haven't taken HYT empowerment, but as a vegan myself when I came across some of this information I thought Tibetan Buddhism might not be for me and I should look else where instead of having the tradition change for me. I talked with a few teachers and practitioners and most of them said that meat substitutes can be used. The Karmapa I believe has stopped using meat in ceremonies as well, but I may be wrong.
This is a result of undue influence of Chinese Buddhist clients.

Lower tantra practice, however, is vegetarian oriented, and plenty of people in Tibetan Buddhism don’t practice HYT. Arguably Mahamudra practice in the Kagyu and Ganden traditions can be practiced by vegans. But HYT and Nyingma inner tantra cannot be practiced by people with ideological food preferences, no matter how noble their intentions may be.
How should this be understood then if a Lama says that one does not have to use real meat in tsok offering? The Karmapa has said that he does not want his followers to use meat or alcohol in tsok offerings, so if someone received HYT empowerment from him (or another lama who gives similar instruction) should they listen to that advice or not?

If I am understanding it properly as well, a vegan/vegetarian could practice the three lower tantras and Mahamudra and have no conflicting issues? There are no HYT requirements for Mahamudra in these lineages?
Malcolm
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Malcolm »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:34 pm

How should this be understood then if a Lama says that one does not have to use real meat in tsok offering?
He is wrong. Entitled to his opinion, but mistaken.
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Nicholas2727 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:34 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:34 pm

How should this be understood then if a Lama says that one does not have to use real meat in tsok offering?
He is wrong. Entitled to his opinion, but mistaken.
What should a student do in a situation like this? The Karmapa is not the only Lama I've heard give this advice, a few other Kagyu and a couple Gelug lamas have also said this so I'm curious if a practitioner were to come across this what's the right thing to do? According to you he may be wrong according to the texts (I haven't read them so I can't confirm or deny), but my understanding is that a student should follow their Lamas guidance and instructions.
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Konchog1
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by Konchog1 »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:34 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:34 pm

How should this be understood then if a Lama says that one does not have to use real meat in tsok offering?
He is wrong. Entitled to his opinion, but mistaken.
What should a student do in a situation like this? The Karmapa is not the only Lama I've heard give this advice, a few other Kagyu and a couple Gelug lamas have also said this so I'm curious if a practitioner were to come across this what's the right thing to do? According to you he may be wrong according to the texts (I haven't read them so I can't confirm or deny), but my understanding is that a student should follow their Lamas guidance and instructions.
Correct. As for my lamas, Garchen Rinpoche has used cheese but my Gelugpa lama, Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel uses jerky, so just follow your lama's lead.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats
PeterC
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by PeterC »

Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 7:47 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 4:34 pm
Nicholas2727 wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:34 pm

How should this be understood then if a Lama says that one does not have to use real meat in tsok offering?
He is wrong. Entitled to his opinion, but mistaken.
What should a student do in a situation like this? The Karmapa is not the only Lama I've heard give this advice, a few other Kagyu and a couple Gelug lamas have also said this so I'm curious if a practitioner were to come across this what's the right thing to do? According to you he may be wrong according to the texts (I haven't read them so I can't confirm or deny), but my understanding is that a student should follow their Lamas guidance and instructions.
Regard comments by the lama as skillful means: instructions given to specific students at a specific time and place. Recognize that we practice all rituals imperfectly to some degree, and do the best one can within one's capacity.
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Is Shingon lesser because it has less tantras than Tibetan vajrayana?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

Buddhism is full of many different doxologies and ways of relating different paths to each other. The constant listing, categorizing, and re-categorizing has, historically speaking, often been controversial or bent for what might be termed "less than altruistic" reasons. What is called "the ultimate path" in one time or place has very often been viewed as "merely provisional" elsewhere and elsewhen.

Of course, most of us are well aware of concepts like "the 84,000 Dharma doors" and the use of upaya to find the best path for a given individual based differences in situation, character, and so on. Chullapantaka's famed intellectual challenges and the exquisite simplicity of the path Shakyamuni Buddha tasked him with did not make him any less of an Ahrat than those who got there by following more complex practices.

Thus, I think it can be said that the various hierarchical schematics that have been tossed up over the millennia are not supposed to involve normative judgement along the lines of "higher means better and lower means inferior." But such judgements have often tended to congeal nevertheless.

For example, the concept of Ekayāna or the"one vehicle" has been employed by certain Japanese Mahayana theorists to claim that their system of choice is "outside of and beyond" all other systems, including the Tibetan schools, while from a Vajrayana perspective, these sects are considered quite differently.

Most (all?) of the responses in this thread so far have tried to evaluate Shingon using a Tibetan doxological template, which is not necessarily completely unfair, but I think such efforts should be pursued with extreme caution.

For example, when Shingon thinkers first encountered the higher yoga tantras, some of them came to the conclusion that Shingon should be placed in the "higher" position, based on ideas realted to alleged levels of "purity." There is no need to go into the details IMHO, because it seems times and perceptions have perhaps changed quite a bit all around.

But it is an example of how national, cultural, and sectarian factors might possibly make "rankings" of sects and paths at least open to debate, certainly full of potential pitfalls, and perhaps even unanswerable objectively.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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