Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

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Nalanda
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Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Nalanda »

I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
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Malcolm
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:37 pm I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
You should subscribe to Academia.edu. There are thousands of Buddhist papers that will answer all your questions, and create thousands more.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Zhen Li »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:37 pm I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
These really require separate posts each.

As Malcolm suggests, it's better to teach a man to fish than to give him fish.

Recently, Wisdom Library has exploded in content. They quote from a lot of non-academic sources, but they can also help to figure things out: https://www.wisdomlib.org
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Nalanda wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:37 pm I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
I would look into scholarship which talks about texts like the Tattvasaṃgraha and Mahavairocana Tantras, these are considered by modern scholars some of the earliest full fledged Buddhist tantras.
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A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Zhen Li »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:51 pm
Nalanda wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:37 pm I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
I would look into scholarship which talks about texts like the Tattvasaṃgraha and Mahavairocana Tantras, these are considered by modern scholars some of the earliest full fledged Buddhist tantras.
I think Ādibuddha might be a Kālacakra development, but I am not sure. I don't recall it being mentioned in those texts...
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Zhen Li wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 3:41 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:51 pm
Nalanda wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:37 pm I know these are in the tantric texts but have you come across from the academic perspective how these ideas come about and developed over time?
I would look into scholarship which talks about texts like the Tattvasaṃgraha and Mahavairocana Tantras, these are considered by modern scholars some of the earliest full fledged Buddhist tantras.
I think Ādibuddha might be a Kālacakra development, but I am not sure. I don't recall it being mentioned in those texts...
The term is probably,y first found in the Namasamgiti.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Aemilius »

According to Wisdom Library:

"In the Guna Karanda Vyuha it is written:

'When nothing else was, Sambhu was: that is the Self-Existent (svayambhu): and as he was before all, he is also called Adi-Buddha.'

The first system of Adi-Buddha was set up in Nepal by a theistic school called Aisvarika, but was never generally adopted in Nepal or Tibet, and had practically no followers in China and Japan.

The Nepalese school supposed an Adi-Buddha infinite, omniscient, self-existing, without beginning and without end, the source and originator of all things, who by virtue of five sorts of wisdom (jnana) and by the exercise of five meditations (dhyana) evolved five Dhyani-Buddhas or Celestial Jinas called Anupapadaka, or 'without parents'.

When all was perfect void (maha-Sunyata) the mystic syllable aum became manifest, from which at his own will the Adi-Buddha was produced. At the creation of the world he revealed himself in the form of a flame which issued from a lotusflower, and in Nepal the Adi-Buddha is always represented by this symbol.

Svayambhu, or Adi-Buddha, was called Isvara by the Aisvarika, and Svabhava by the Svabhavika; but he was also given such special names as Vairocana, Vajrapani, Vajradhara, and Vajrasattva. In the Namasangiti (compiled before the tenth century a.d.) Manjusri, god of Transcendent Wisdom, is referred to as Adi-Buddha. "

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... c4664.html
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by tingdzin »

I'm sorry; if this article is any indication, "Wisdom Library" is just junk Internet stuff. Look somewhere else.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Caoimhghín »

WisdomLibrary is a highly valuable resource.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... ita-sastra

Their various dictionaries hosted alone are amazing.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Zhen Li »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:53 amI'm sorry; if this article is any indication, "Wisdom Library" is just junk Internet stuff. Look somewhere else.
Wisdom Library is a library. It is a collection of sources. The information you find there is only as good as the original documents.

The translation of the Prajñāpāramitā Śāstra on there, for instance, is a great source of information on general Mahāyāna. I find if you are looking for something less specialised than Vajrayāna, it usually helps a lot.

Alice Getty's writing needs academic contextualization and should be seen as historic scholarship. At the time (1914), almost nothing could be found on these topics. Now the situation is different and it would be better to find other sources.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:42 am According to Wisdom Library:

"In the Guna Karanda Vyuha it is written:

'When nothing else was, Sambhu was: that is the Self-Existent (svayambhu): and as he was before all, he is also called Adi-Buddha.'

No, actually, it isn't written there at all. The term does not exist in this sūtra or any other.

The term adhibuddha (dang po'i sangs rgyas) either originates from the Mañjuśrīmulakalpa or the Namasaṃgiti, depending on which text one thinks was set down first.

Samantabhadra, to answer the OP's question, first shows up as a name for the dharmakāya in the Sarvatathāgatatattvasamgraha Tantra. Vajrasattva also first appears in this tantra.

Vajradhara first appears in the Susiddhikara-mahātantra-sādhanopāyika-paṭala, the root kriya tantra.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Natan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:11 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:42 am According to Wisdom Library:

"In the Guna Karanda Vyuha it is written:

'When nothing else was, Sambhu was: that is the Self-Existent (svayambhu): and as he was before all, he is also called Adi-Buddha.'

No, actually, it isn't written there at all. The term does not exist in this sūtra or any other.

The term adhibuddha (dang po'i sangs rgyas) either originates from the Mañjuśrīmulakalpa or the Namasaṃgiti, depending on which text one thinks was set down first.

Samantabhadra, to answer the OP's question, first shows up as a name for the dharmakāya in the Sarvatathāgatatattvasamgraha Tantra. Vajrasattva also first appears in this tantra.

Vajradhara first appears in the Susiddhikara-mahātantra-sādhanopāyika-paṭala, the root kriya tantra.
Do we have dates on these tantras?
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Crazywisdom wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:21 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:11 pm
Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:42 am According to Wisdom Library:

"In the Guna Karanda Vyuha it is written:

'When nothing else was, Sambhu was: that is the Self-Existent (svayambhu): and as he was before all, he is also called Adi-Buddha.'

No, actually, it isn't written there at all. The term does not exist in this sūtra or any other.

The term adhibuddha (dang po'i sangs rgyas) either originates from the Mañjuśrīmulakalpa or the Namasaṃgiti, depending on which text one thinks was set down first.

Samantabhadra, to answer the OP's question, first shows up as a name for the dharmakāya in the Sarvatathāgatatattvasamgraha Tantra. Vajrasattva also first appears in this tantra.

Vajradhara first appears in the Susiddhikara-mahātantra-sādhanopāyika-paṭala, the root kriya tantra.
Do we have dates on these tantras?
We have the evidence of when they were translated into Tibetan and Chinese, and evidence of their development over time.

Susiddhikara-mahātantra-sādhanopāyika-paṭala was translated into Chinese in 726. The Sarvatathāgatatattvasaṁgraha in 756. The Mañjuśrīmulakalpa appeared in Chinese (983), and a bit later in Tibetan (1040+-). AFIK, the Nāmasaṃgīti was never translated into Chinese untl quite late, The version now in the Tibetan Kengyur was translated into Tibetan by RInchen Zangpo, but there exists a commentary attributed Vimalamitra with all the root verses, in a translation attributed to Nyak Jñānakumara. Davidson thinks it may have been composed around 700 CE. It is a work listed in the Ldan dkar catalogue. There is a Snying ma rgyud 'bum translation that differs from the one in the Kengyur. It is also found in Dunhuang. Anthony Tribe summarizes the scholarship on Namasaṃgīti here:

https://www.academia.edu/34621199/_Mañj ... Brill_2015.

In any case, I would elect this as the likely source of the term "adibuddha."
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Aemilius »

The widely known name Adam comes from the sumerian word Adapa, meaning "first man". The concepts that have been used in Buddhism in many cases existed before the teaching of Shakyamuni. Thus the word First-buddha or Adibuddha can be, for example, 10 000 or 100 000 years old.
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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:44 pm The widely known name Adam comes from the sumerian word Adapa, meaning "first man". The concepts that have been used in Buddhism in many cases existed before the teaching of Shakyamuni. Thus the word First-buddha or Adibuddha can be, for example, 10 000 or 100 000 years old.
Fantasy.

"First" here is metaphorical. It does not refer to a period in time.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by haha »

Different Buddhist texts mention Adi Buddha, Svayambhu. The Adi Buddha is Venerated as spiritual Buddha or divine Buddha or Jyotirupa. However, Svayambhu Mahachaitya is also regarded as a Caitya constructed in memory of human Buddha. In this context, five forms of Adi Buddha may be referred i.e. 1) Svayambhu Jyotirupa 2) Samanta Bhadra Tathagata 3) Vajradhara Tathagata 4) Vajrasattva Tathagata 5) Dharmadhatu Vagishvara. They are somehow or other related with Bodhisattva concept.
Many Buddhists regard bodhisattva Samanta Bhadra or Vajrapani as Adi Buddha. However this version seems to be of later origin.
P 81

Adi buddha is regarded as the highest deity of Buddhist of Buddhist pantheon in Vajrayana Buddhism. He is referred as the originator of the five Dhayni Buddhas.
P 82

If we consider Adi Buddha concept Svayambhu cult will appear as based on monism and not influenced by Sankhya philosophy, Moreover Adhi Buddha concept is referred as based on Annuttarabodhi, Sunyata and is represented as (Niranjan Nirakara) as discussed above.
p 83

Khadga Man Shrestha, (2008) History of Buddhism in Nepal Upto 1956 with Special Reference to Vajrayana Buddhism
Here it says Svayambhu Mahachaitya as Adhi Buddha. They have their own buddhist literature, history and myths, and they have their own right to create discourses. We can see there are the same names (for Tathagata and Bodhisattva).

The Adi Buddha is without preceding cause (niranvaya). This Adi Buddha concept is very similar to non-buddhist narrative. As it claims that there are the emanations of five buddhas from Adi buddha. It is at least in terms of modalities. There is even a creator Lokeswara (one form).
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Aemilius »

Adibuddha is mentioned in Karandavyuha sutra, chapter 4.
"The Kāraṇḍavyūha Sūtra is a Mantrayāna sutra that was compiled at the end of the 4th century or beginning of the 5th century CE."
It seems to be a lot earlier scriptural reference to Adibuddha than Namasangiti.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:18 pm Adibuddha is mentioned in Karandavyuha sutra, chapter 4.
"The Kāraṇḍavyūha Sūtra is a Mantrayāna sutra that was compiled at the end of the 4th century or beginning of the 5th century CE."
It seems to be a lot earlier scriptural reference to Adibuddha than Namasangiti.
I looked, the term isn’t there.

It’s been well translated by Roberts over at 84,000 as Basket Display. Go read it. Rather than depending upon inaccurate wiki pages.
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Claims that "Ādibuddha," as a term, shows up in either the Sanskrit, Tibetan, or Chinese of the Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra are ubiquitous. Substantiations of it, as a term, showing up there are rare. I've even seen (seemingly) deliberately-mistranslated snippets that literally insert the word "Ādibuddha." This isn't an example of that, but notice this dictionary entry:
Adibuddha definition chinese.GIF
Adibuddha definition chinese.GIF (369.5 KiB) Viewed 9395 times
There is no "actual" citation. Generally, in the DDB, it will use a very precise Taisho citation that allows you to go directly to the section of the scripture in question. A citation like this:
ayatanaddbentry.GIF
ayatanaddbentry.GIF (208.67 KiB) Viewed 9395 times
The T followed by the numbers links directly to a section of the Brahmajala vaipulya that uses the term 入處 (āyatana). 本初佛 ("Original First Buddha") has no such citation, and indeed these three characters in this sequence don't appear anywhere in the Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra despite the pseudo-citation of the scripture in the DDB database. Situations like this are ubiquitous when researching deeply into the matter of the so-called "Primordial Ādibuddha" in the Avalokiteśvaraguṇakāraṇḍavyūhasūtra. Lots of people say it's there. It's not there. Lots of people are going by hearsay.

It's kind of obvious (to me at least) why there would be such an odd fudging of the content of this sūtra, namely "People want to believe in God and want the Buddha's realization tied to some sort of communion, communication, or gnosis of God." I see no other reason why we'd see so many falsified or mistaken references in otherwise relatively-well-established compendia. There is a bias at work.

What it really reminds me of is various Hindutva attempts to show that the Buddha taught a Dharma more-or-less completely congruent to Advaita Vedanta and that Buddhists merely misunderstand their teacher. Instead, in the case of this sūtra, we have a group who wants to say "The Buddha actually secretly believed in God."

My opinion.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Origin & Development of Adi-Buddha, Vajradhara, Vajrasattva, and Samantabhadra?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:49 pm
It's kind of obvious (to me at least) why there would be such an odd fudging of the content of this sūtra, namely "People want to believe in God and want the Buddha's realization tied to some sort of communion, communication, or gnosis of God." I see no other reason why we'd see so many falsified or mistaken references in otherwise relatively-well-established compendia. There is a bias at work.
This is the passage, the misunderstanding of which, has caused such confusion:


Bodhisattva Sarva­nīvaraṇa­viṣkambhin asked the Bhagavat, “What were the qualities of Bodhisattva Mahāsattva Avalokiteśvara that you heard the tathāgata describe?”

The Bhagavat said, “Āditya and Candra came from his eyes, Maheśvara came from his forehead, Brahmā came from his shoulders, Nārāyaṇa came from his heart, Devi Sarasvatī came from his canines, Vāyu came from his mouth, Dharaṇī came from his feet, and Varuṇa came from his stomach.

“When those deities had come from Avalokiteśvara’s body, that bhagavat told the deity Maheśvara, ‘Maheśvara, in the kaliyuga, when beings have bad natures, you will be declared to be the primal deity who is the creator, the maker. All those beings will be excluded from the path to enlightenment. They will say to ordinary beings:

“ ‘It is said: the sky is his liṅga,
The earth is his seat.
He is the foundation of all beings.
The liṅga is so called because they dissolve into it.


https://read.84000.co/translation/UT220 ... 051-004-67

The Sanskrit manuscript provided as an appendix lists the term ādibuddha 8 times, sometimes in the phrase ādibuddhaiḥ pracoditā, Was taught by the buddhas from the earliest times. And sometimes in the plural, ādibuddhair, primordial buddhas. But it is never used in this text in sense of adibuddha in the Namasamgīti, and later texts. So, the Namasaṃgīti wins.
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