the Zen promise is empty

jmlee369
Posts: 693
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:22 am

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by jmlee369 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:54 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 1:38 am
Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:40 pm

No, this doesn’t follow, since the Buddha, so we have read, did exactly that.
Yeah, well, he was the exception, which is probably why we are Buddhists. He also backed it up with a few miracles
Which he also explained didn’t prove anything…
Of course the best miracles is the exhaustion of afflictions. The others may not prove anything, but there must have been some purpose to the Buddhas and bodhisattvas' display of miracles and relics.
muni
Posts: 5559
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by muni »

Ted Biringer wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:16 pm Thank you Clyde,

While I think I get the point of your post, it may be a little muddled. That is, you seem to be conflating the conventional with the absolute – that is mixing the notions of an individual personality (a particular sentient being) with the One Mind (Buddha, Dharmakaya, the Unborn, True Person of No Rank, etc.).

Remember, in the absolute sense (which words cannot convey) there are no enlightened beings. Buddha (the on mind, etc.) is simply the true nature of everything. That is, there is only one, and each particular being or thing (dharma) is in reality only an aspect of that one. In the absolute sense, if an individual says or thinks “Buddha” is distinct from or independent of “sentient being” (or anything else) they thereby demonstrate ignorance of their own true nature. In short, there are no “awakened beings” because there are no “unawakened beings.” As Dogen says, “When Buddhas are Buddhas they do not know they are Buddhas.” For to have the idea of “Buddha” is to distinguish “Buddha” from “not-Buddha.” Huang Po conveyed it like this:

Huang Po addressed the assembly, "All of you are eaters of brewers-leaves (dregs). Going around on pilgrimage as you do, when will you ever meet the day? Don't you know that in the whole Tang Empire there are no Zen teachers?" A monk stepped forward and said, "What about those who have disciples and lead assemblies?" Huang Po replied, "I don't say there's no Zen, only that there are no teachers of Zen."

At the conventional level, of course, we can talk about awakened beings and deluded beings – but we must be aware of the limitations of such language. At the conventional level there are vast differences between the understanding, awareness, or enlightenment of various beings. The great master Joshu gave an indication of this when he finally settled down to teach after more than forty years of deepening his own realization, saying, “If I meet a 100 year old person that I can teach, I will teach them. If I meet a 7 year old child that can teach me, I will become that child’s disciple.” Thereby demonstrating that he was not a “fully enlightened being.”

While the depth of understanding and realization varies from individual to individual, the nature of that realization is the same. The average Joe or Mary that experiences a spontaneous glimpse of emptiness (true nature), experiences the exact same reality as Shakyamuni himself did. While for Joe or Mary such an experience may be a fleeting glimpse, forgotten forever, it is a genuine glimpse of reality as it is. Some people will have deep realizations and effectively cultivate and realize them for a lifetime, others may have shallow glimpses that never effectively transform them. Some that are shallow realization make good teachers, some that are deeply realized can hardly teach at all.

I believe that with a basic grasp of the classic Zen records and some common sense it is not too difficult to find a reliable teacher – that is, someone that can help us awaken to our own true nature. With some general familiarity of the Zen records we will at least be able to avoid the obvious charlatans and quacksalvers.

Ultimately, the true Buddha is and has always been closer than our own hands and feet – it is less a matter of finding an “awakened being” and more about finding a being that can help us awaken to who and what we truly are and have always been.

Peace,
Ted
:namaste:

By the idea of self we cling, divide, compare, put in opposing boxes.
Methods can differ, nature of all is not to compare even labeling Zen or other tradition, that you make clear.

Thank you. _/\_
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by clyde »

Matylda wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:43 pm
clyde wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:15 pm Yes, it will simply be Zen practitioners opinions about Zen teachers. ... based on their personalities and.... depth of realization.
Hi Clyde

Mostly I try to avoid further discussion, but this caught my attention. How is possible for any zen student to have opinion based on teacher`s realization?! If it would be possible by any means then the student should be actually the master of his or her own master. What simply makes no sense. Widely spread opinions about teachers are mostly sort of ignorance if not arrogance. Maybe it sounds harsh, but actually we may have devotion, faith etc. but judgments are missing badly the point. It is understandable, that we have teachers, but it is not based on their realization - then we do not need them if we could focus such thing - but rather due to some affinity, or as people like to say, due to some karmic relation. If we create opinion about master `enlightenment` `realization` etc. then it is easy to get one day confused, or loose faith, or feel harmed.
Hi Matylda.

Thank you for your response. I agree that student-teacher relationships arise with a sense of compatibility and resonance due to causes and conditions we cannot fathom (karma). And I understand your point about opinions.

Fortunately we do not need to rely on our judgements (though we should not ignore them either). There are teachers who do speak of their kensho. In addition to Guo Gu and Meido who both spoke of their kensho, there are other Zen teachers. Here is Daizan Skinner Roshi. In this interview he discusses his spiritual journey and at 1:20:38 he talks about his kensho (enlightenment) and about stream entry.



He is the head teacher of Zen Ways. See here for a discussion about Daizan Skinner Roshi and his approach:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=35289
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
User avatar
clyde
Posts: 742
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:17 am
Location: Walnut Creek, CA

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by clyde »

Ted Biringer wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:16 pm Thank you Clyde,

While I think I get the point of your post, it may be a little muddled. That is, you seem to be conflating the conventional with the absolute – that is mixing the notions of an individual personality (a particular sentient being) with the One Mind (Buddha, Dharmakaya, the Unborn, True Person of No Rank, etc.).

Remember, in the absolute sense (which words cannot convey) there are no enlightened beings. Buddha (the on mind, etc.) is simply the true nature of everything. That is, there is only one, and each particular being or thing (dharma) is in reality only an aspect of that one. In the absolute sense, if an individual says or thinks “Buddha” is distinct from or independent of “sentient being” (or anything else) they thereby demonstrate ignorance of their own true nature. In short, there are no “awakened beings” because there are no “unawakened beings.” As Dogen says, “When Buddhas are Buddhas they do not know they are Buddhas.” For to have the idea of “Buddha” is to distinguish “Buddha” from “not-Buddha.” Huang Po conveyed it like this:

Huang Po addressed the assembly, "All of you are eaters of brewers-leaves (dregs). Going around on pilgrimage as you do, when will you ever meet the day? Don't you know that in the whole Tang Empire there are no Zen teachers?" A monk stepped forward and said, "What about those who have disciples and lead assemblies?" Huang Po replied, "I don't say there's no Zen, only that there are no teachers of Zen."

At the conventional level, of course, we can talk about awakened beings and deluded beings – but we must be aware of the limitations of such language. At the conventional level there are vast differences between the understanding, awareness, or enlightenment of various beings. The great master Joshu gave an indication of this when he finally settled down to teach after more than forty years of deepening his own realization, saying, “If I meet a 100 year old person that I can teach, I will teach them. If I meet a 7 year old child that can teach me, I will become that child’s disciple.” Thereby demonstrating that he was not a “fully enlightened being.”

While the depth of understanding and realization varies from individual to individual, the nature of that realization is the same. The average Joe or Mary that experiences a spontaneous glimpse of emptiness (true nature), experiences the exact same reality as Shakyamuni himself did. While for Joe or Mary such an experience may be a fleeting glimpse, forgotten forever, it is a genuine glimpse of reality as it is. Some people will have deep realizations and effectively cultivate and realize them for a lifetime, others may have shallow glimpses that never effectively transform them. Some that are shallow realization make good teachers, some that are deeply realized can hardly teach at all.

I believe that with a basic grasp of the classic Zen records and some common sense it is not too difficult to find a reliable teacher – that is, someone that can help us awaken to our own true nature. With some general familiarity of the Zen records we will at least be able to avoid the obvious charlatans and quacksalvers.

Ultimately, the true Buddha is and has always been closer than our own hands and feet – it is less a matter of finding an “awakened being” and more about finding a being that can help us awaken to who and what we truly are and have always been.

Peace,
Ted
Ted, Thank you for your response. I agree with everything you wrote, everything - except I wasn’t conflating the conventional with the absolute.

I feel indebted to Zen practices (zazen) and teachings, and I want to encourage Zen teachers (if students are too shy) to talk about their attainments and the benefits of practice - to encourage fellow practitioners and those considering the Zen Way and if it’s ‘right’ for them.

🙏🏼

clyde
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
Posts: 1065
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Thu Feb 17, 2022 7:03 am
at 1:20:38 he talks about his kensho (enlightenment) and about stream entry.



He is the head teacher of Zen Ways. See here for a discussion about Daizan Skinner Roshi and his approach:
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=35289
well i did not hear at 1.20.38 anything about his kensho or so...
once i read the thread you mention, he made soome strange claims as far as I remember.
Nadereme
Posts: 22
Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:30 am

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by Nadereme »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:40 pm
seeker242 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:03 pm
clyde wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:47 pm but that it seems generally accepted that there are NO awakened living Buddhist teachers in any tradition!
There are plenty of awakened teachers. There is really no reason to believe there isn't.

:meditate:
There is also no reason to believe there is. Awakening is not a falsifiable phenomena. So in the end, it just amounts to a faith-based narrative. Even the Buddha was absolutely clear about this:
Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."
—- https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I am not saying we should not have faith that there are somewhere awakened human beings out there. I am just saying we need to be honest that it isn’t an objective fact that can be ascertained beyond doubt. Relics, light shining from bodies, etc., are also not proof of realization.
Well, not falsifiable from the perspective of one who isn’t awakened. Of course Samyaksambuddhas can falsify.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by Malcolm »

Nadereme wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:16 pm Well, not falsifiable from the perspective of one who isn’t awakened.
Its the only perspective that counts, actually.
muni
Posts: 5559
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:59 am

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by muni »

I jump here in between, having actually nothing to say...

Again, reading here on another tread, the methods and words differ but what is not created nor fabricated needs no words like sameness or different, what would be subject about an object. A mind about a phenomenon. And as soon as these two are there are selves.
In many places in the Himalayas, often Buddhists from all traditions come together like as well in Dharamsala, ...supporting not only each other, but caring for all. Many Zen practitioners, Theravada practitioners, and other from any corner, all amazing kind, and Dalai Lama always respecting/ interested in the other traditions, so hearty welcoming. No people were saying: I practice this or that, all were simply there for each other...As well, Tibetan masters point regularly to Zen examples. Anyway no any need for doubt, and so I wish all fellows on the internet, whatever tradition or method; may all realize what always is and then not forget me/all to help.
Ted Biringer
Posts: 29
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:27 pm

Re: the Zen promise is empty

Post by Ted Biringer »

muni wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 8:57 am I jump here in between, having actually nothing to say...

Again, reading here on another tread, the methods and words differ but what is not created nor fabricated needs no words like sameness or different, what would be subject about an object. A mind about a phenomenon. And as soon as these two are there are selves.
In many places in the Himalayas, often Buddhists from all traditions come together like as well in Dharamsala, ...supporting not only each other, but caring for all. Many Zen practitioners, Theravada practitioners, and other from any corner, all amazing kind, and Dalai Lama always respecting/ interested in the other traditions, so hearty welcoming. No people were saying: I practice this or that, all were simply there for each other...As well, Tibetan masters point regularly to Zen examples. Anyway no any need for doubt, and so I wish all fellows on the internet, whatever tradition or method; may all realize what always is and then not forget me/all to help.
Thank you for this thoughtful post.
Three full bows.
Ted
Post Reply

Return to “Zen”