Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

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Nalanda
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Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Nalanda »

It's so popular that even my aunt (who is a Christian) has one.

Why is this book such a hit to Westerners?
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.

CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE

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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Kim O'Hara »

I don't think it's particularly popular these days but it was one of the first Buddhist books to make it into popular culture in the West, say 50 years ago. At that time it was wildly exotic and everyone outside the very boring mainstream culture had at least heard of it, if not read it. Around the same time, there were a few other big titles in New Age and 'alternative' circles - Zen and the Art of __ __ (can you fill in the gaps?), Be Here Now by Ram __ , Jonathan Livingstone ___ , etc.

People new to Buddhism (or New Age and 'alternative' circles) a few decades later would have bought HHDL's The Art of Happiness instead.

If you visit your local thrift shop and browse the bookshelves you will see what was popular at different times. And they probably have a dumpster full of The Da Vinci Code out the back! :toilet:

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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Malcolm »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:23 pm It's so popular that even my aunt (who is a Christian) has one.

Why is this book such a hit to Westerners?
Hippies.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Ayu »

If people want to know more about death and dying, it's hard to find any consoling sources that seem to be trustable.
The tibetan himalya sages get a bit more benefit of the doubt than medevial christian sources. I think many good christian sources have been neglegted in the past and thus are lost.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by zerwe »

I think was popular because of a book that Timothy Leary wrote called The Psychedelic Experience. He suggested the possibility of the LSD experience mirroring death, bardo, and rebirth.

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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Caoimhghín »

I think that most people have a vague idea of what Egyptian books of the dead were, lists of esoteric spells and practices to help with the journey over the lake of fire in the underworld. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is marketed in the West directly after the precedent of the ancient Egyptian books, even though the contents of the two is quite different (and even though there is no such thing as "one singular Egyptian Book of the Dead!"). With this in mind, there is a tendency to think of the Book of the Dead as a list of spells and practices to navigate the afterlife. They aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:50 pmThey aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by tobes »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:20 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:50 pmThey aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
I think that Fremantle's later commentary on it - Luminous Emptiness - is a really good piece of work.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:20 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:50 pmThey aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
I was given the Thupten Jinpa translation by a very well-meaning relative. Where does this translation stand amongst those?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:20 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:50 pmThey aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
I was given the Thupten Jinpa translation by a very well-meaning relative. Where does this translation stand amongst those?
Was unaware he made one. I am sure it is technically accurate enough.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:10 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 1:17 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:20 pm

It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
I was given the Thupten Jinpa translation by a very well-meaning relative. Where does this translation stand amongst those?
Was unaware he made one. I am sure it is technically accurate enough.
I believe it's the Gyurme Dorje translation, where Thubten Jinpa and Graham Coleman are editors.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Caoimhghín »

If I've misattributed Thupten Jinpa as translator, apologies. I just looked at the Amazon page that resembled the cover I remember.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Dorje Shedrub »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 3:20 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:50 pmThey aren't entirely wrong, but are missing out on the fact that the book is not for "everyone," nor is it useful to "everyone." I have a copy of one of the translations. It was given to me one Christmas. It's not a useful book for me, but I was obviously very polite when I received it.
It’s specifically a bardo guidebook for Dzogchen practitioners. First Evans Wentz published his version, very influenced by his Theosophical leanings, totally not understanding it’s context. Then, well, hippies like Leary started to read this while they were tripping. He then wrote his LSD version. Then, Trungpa collaborated with Francesca Freemantle to reestablish the book’s context, Thurman dud a version, that, quite frankly, is just weird. Gyurme Dorje translated the liturgical content.
Which version do you recommend? Gyurme Dorje?
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Miorita »

@OP:
Let me understand this right! You go spying on your aunt, but you don't ask her why she is reading the book.
Because you lack the courage to ask a simple question, my answer to you is "Because".
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Kim O'Hara »

Miorita wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:19 am @OP:
Let me understand this right! You go spying on your aunt, but you don't ask her why she is reading the book.
Because you lack the courage to ask a simple question, my answer to you is "Because".
@Miorita:
Let me understand this right! You make unfounded assumptions about the OP, instead of asking Nalanda about the circumstances.
Because you lack the courage to ask a simple question, you have no right to offer an answer.

:thinking:
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Ayu »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:15 am
Miorita wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 6:19 am @OP:
Let me understand this right! You go spying on your aunt, but you don't ask her why she is reading the book.
Because you lack the courage to ask a simple question, my answer to you is "Because".
@Miorita:
Let me understand this right! You make unfounded assumptions about the OP, instead of asking Nalanda about the circumstances.
Because you lack the courage to ask a simple question, you have no right to offer an answer.

:thinking:
Kim
Okay, this issue is clearified now. I'll cut any further discussion on this as off topic.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Hazel »

Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:23 pm It's so popular that even my aunt (who is a Christian) has one.

Why is this book such a hit to Westerners?
It sounds totally metal. Same reason why people became obsessed with the Necronomicon, and that book doesn't even exist! There's also Book of the Dead, the Egyptian funerary text that people are likewise interested in. It's brutal and awesome. 🤘
Happy Pride month to my queer dharma siblings!

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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:23 pm It's so popular that even my aunt (who is a Christian) has one.

Why is this book such a hit to Westerners?
Hippies.
It is much earlier than that. What are the names of the youth- and subculture movements in 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's?

"Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz (February 2, 1878 – July 17, 1965) was an American anthropologist and writer who was a pioneer in the study of Tibetan Buddhism, and in transmission of Tibetan Buddhism to the Western world, most known for publishing an early English translation of The Tibetan Book of the Dead in 1927. He had three other texts translated from the Tibetan: Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa (1928), Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines (1935), and The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation (1954), and wrote the preface to Paramahansa Yogananda's famous spiritual book, Autobiography of a Yogi (1946)."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 pm
Nalanda wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:23 pm It's so popular that even my aunt (who is a Christian) has one.

Why is this book such a hit to Westerners?
Hippies.
It is much earlier than that. What are the names of the youth- and subculture movements in 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's?

"Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz (February 2, 1878 – July 17, 1965) was an American anthropologist and writer who was a pioneer in the study of Tibetan Buddhism, and in transmission of Tibetan Buddhism to the Western world, most known for publishing an early English translation of The Tibetan Book of the Dead in 1927. He had three other texts translated from the Tibetan: Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa (1928), Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines (1935), and The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation (1954), and wrote the preface to Paramahansa Yogananda's famous spiritual book, Autobiography of a Yogi (1946)."
Yes, and he understood none of them and interpreted all of them through the cloudy lens of Theosophy. His publications are useful for understanding the progress of the reception of Buddhism in the west, but importantly, none of his books are accurate and immediately attracted the attention of early Tibetan arrivals for their lack of accuracy. Of course the Sikkimese gentleman who translated these for him understood them perfectly well, but Evans-Wentz’s editing distorted these translations not to mention his introductions, etc.
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Re: Why is the book "Tibetan Book of the Dead" so popular amongst non-Buddhists / beginners

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:27 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:06 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:49 pm

Hippies.
It is much earlier than that. What are the names of the youth- and subculture movements in 1920's, 1930's, 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's?

"Walter Yeeling Evans-Wentz (February 2, 1878 – July 17, 1965) was an American anthropologist and writer who was a pioneer in the study of Tibetan Buddhism, and in transmission of Tibetan Buddhism to the Western world, most known for publishing an early English translation of The Tibetan Book of the Dead in 1927. He had three other texts translated from the Tibetan: Tibet's Great Yogi Milarepa (1928), Tibetan Yoga and Secret Doctrines (1935), and The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation (1954), and wrote the preface to Paramahansa Yogananda's famous spiritual book, Autobiography of a Yogi (1946)."
Yes, and he understood none of them and interpreted all of them through the cloudy lens of Theosophy. His publications are useful for understanding the progress of the reception of Buddhism in the west, but importantly, none of his books are accurate and immediately attracted the attention of early Tibetan arrivals for their lack of accuracy. Of course the Sikkimese gentleman who translated these for him understood them perfectly well, but Evans-Wentz’s editing distorted these translations not to mention his introductions, etc.
Your eye of transcendental wisdom is lacking in compassionate understanding of the times and people of those times, I would kindly suggest.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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