Alpha waves

[avatamsaka3]

Scientific research has shown that meditation (any kind?) produces alpha waves, which in turn have been associated with higher rates of mistake making. See here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_wav ... prediction

Question for people knowledgeable about neuroscience: How long would it take for the alpha waves to wear off after meditation? Could a person intentionally cultivate different kinds of waves that might increase alertness and thus reduce mistake making, right after meditation?

[Malcolm]

Scientific research has shown that meditation (any kind?) produces alpha waves...

These kinds of studies are often not well designed.

[avatamsaka3]

Here's the actual study referenced above.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epd ... /hbm.20763

Here's another example of this kind of research. I'm not sure if either of these studies are well designed or not:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6612475/

Any neuroscientists here?

[Queequeg]

Here's the actual study referenced above.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epd ... /hbm.20763

So they bored the subjects to death and then threw them a curve ball and they couldn't hit it. What's the breakthrough here?

LOL. I have no idea how to read that jargon, but that's what I got out of it.

Nothing particularly a knock on meditation practice here. In fact, deep states of concentration where one becomes oblivious to one's surroundings is the point of some practices - there's a story in the Pali canon where yogis are one upping each other where they were so deep in absorption that they didn't even notice a caravan of 500 pack animals pass them.

IME, if I'm engaged in an activity, like say running, and I get into the "zone" in which, supposedly, alpha waves kick in, I've found I'm actually even more in control of my body and able to navigate and adapt to ground conditions effortlessly. I could imagine doing some repetitive task and spacing out and screwing things up, as well. Not sure I'd group "the zone" with daydreaming out of boredom, even if both are characterized by alpha waves. Moral of the story, when working with a meat slicer, don't space out.

Here's another example of this kind of research. I'm not sure if either of these studies are well designed or not:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6612475/

Intentionally directing attention to one’s present-moment experience—a central aspect of mindfulness—has been associated with many positive outcomes [4]. However, high levels of self-focused attention have also been found to be associated with psychopathology and negative affect [14,15]. Indeed, high levels of the observing awareness facet of mindfulness have been repeatedly found to be associated with worse mental health, including increased depression, anxiety, dissociation, and substance abuse [8,16] and decreased ability to tolerate pain [17]. However, a few studies have suggested that the correlation between observing awareness and negative outcomes is reduced when observing awareness is correlated with non-judgment and non-reactivity, qualities that are often (but not always) considered essential dimensions of mindfulness [8,16].

If this "observing levels of awareness" is leading to depression, anxiety, dissociation and substance abuse, then, IMHO, they're doing it wrong. There is a difference between observing the breath, for instance, and obsessively picking at a zit.

I suspect these researchers may not have a very nuanced understanding of contemplative practices and may jumble obsessive rumination with actual mindfulness practices.

[Johnny Dangerous]

They don’t understand the difference between observing mindfully and grasping, there is no way someone with that limitation can clinically study mindfulness, they misunderstand the primary thing that distinguishes it, and apparently don’t even understand cognitive fusion, or it’s new to them.

Just based on that, I would question their authority on the subject.

[Queequeg]

They don’t understand the difference between observing mindfully and grasping, there is no way someone with that limitation can clinically study mindfulness, they misunderstand the primary thing that distinguishes it, and apparently don’t even understand cognitive fusion, or it’s new to them.

Just based on that, I would question their authority on the subject.

I hope more researchers develop a better personal understanding of contemplative practices. Not sure how easily a strong practice can fit into the busy life of a researcher in the academy. The whole disenchantment with Samsara that is one of the first steps of the path has the tendency of taking the wind out of the sails on such an arduous journey. Best to do all that graduate work before you start contemplating the futility of samsara...

[yinyangkoi]

They don’t understand the difference between observing mindfully and grasping

Can you elaborate what you think the difference is? Here is my explanation: observing mindfully means to observe reality, while letting phenomena appear and disappear. Grasping is when one becomes attached to the thought, for example 'I want new shoes'. Can you explain how grasping manifests and how it happens in reality from your perspective? What if I get a thought 'I really would like to have a garden to plant my own vegetables'. And then I just observe it and it goes away. Is it still grasping?

[Hazel]

They don’t understand the difference between observing mindfully and grasping, there is no way someone with that limitation can clinically study mindfulness, they misunderstand the primary thing that distinguishes it, and apparently don’t even understand cognitive fusion, or it’s new to them.

Just based on that, I would question their authority on the subject.

I hope more researchers develop a better personal understanding of contemplative practices. Not sure how easily a strong practice can fit into the busy life of a researcher in the academy. The whole disenchantment with Samsara that is one of the first steps of the path has the tendency of taking the wind out of the sails on such an arduous journey. Best to do all that graduate work before you start contemplating the futility of samsara...

I think the best and perhaps preferred thing to hope for is for experts in one discipline to team up with the other. Let the scientists excel at the science portion. There's been recently great progress with this in bridging the gap with machine learning and other research disciplines.

[avatamsaka3]

They don’t understand the difference between observing mindfully and grasping, there is no way someone with that limitation can clinically study mindfulness, they misunderstand the primary thing that distinguishes it, and apparently don’t even understand cognitive fusion, or it’s new to them.

What is the primary thing that distinguishes it? What is cognitive fusion? And how do these specifically apply to the studies at hand?