Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Ikkyu's_Son
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Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

I've attended sessions and empowerments with this teacher, and personally find myself resonating quite well with him, at least on a surface level from said sessions. Looking for some further info on his claims and lineage, I've searched around, and one of the top links was actually a thread in these very forums regarding his claims.

This thread has been locked since August, as no one was able to offer anymore than hearsay, and my intent here is not to stir back up any of the initial arguments for/against this teacher. What I am looking for is if anyone has actual information regarding him (beyond what his personal and student built websites offer) and if anyone, (especially Malcolm if you see this post) have points of contact as well to inquire about this.

In the last thread, a Professor Neehy was recommended as a reference to contact, but I have yet to have hear anything back, and it has been about a month now since I have emailed him.

Any help is much appreciated.
Arnoud
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Arnoud »

So, I read through the other thread. Take what I say with a pile of salt but I have noticed the Indian Tibetans are often disparaging of The lamas coming from Tibet.
Personally, I have always had a hard time connecting with lamas trained in India vs Tibet. I feel Tibetan lamas are a little purer.
Dharamsala monks are probably the most opinionated about lamas from Tibet. For whatever reason.
Also, no lama is perfect.
Malcolm
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Malcolm »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:36 pm I've attended sessions and empowerments with this teacher,
You've already taken empowerments with this person. You've sealed the deal. All you are going to do is wind up breaking your samaya if continue down this path.
Punya
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Punya »

Arnoud wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:47 pm So, I read through the other thread. Take what I say with a pile of salt but I have noticed the Indian Tibetans are often disparaging of The lamas coming from Tibet.
Personally, I have always had a hard time connecting with lamas trained in India vs Tibet. I feel Tibetan lamas are a little purer.
Dharamsala monks are probably the most opinionated about lamas from Tibet. For whatever reason.
Also, no lama is perfect.
No problem with you expressing your personal opinion and talking in generalisations as long as this doesn't suggest to the OP that your comments specifically apply. Whatever the opinions Dharamsala monks have about lamas born and trained in Tibet may be completely irrelevant in this case.

There seems to be two problems for the OP. One is that it can be (although not in all cases eg the students of Phuntsok Rinpoche) much harder to verify the credentials of a Buddhist teacher coming directly from Tibet. The other is that anyone who has specific concerns and/or information about a Tibetan Buddhist teacher may also have samaya with them and therefore would be unlikely to say anything publicly against them. This means that any concerns that surface may not be able to be confirmed - however frustrating that is.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche
Arnoud
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Arnoud »

Punya wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 10:32 pm
No problem with you expressing your personal opinion and talking in generalisations as long as this doesn't suggest to the OP that your comments specifically apply. Whatever the opinions Dharamsala monks have about lamas born and trained in Tibet may be completely irrelevant in this case.
Yes, they may be. Or they may apply. Since OP already took Wang from the lama in question, it might be good to disregard whatever he has read in the other topic.
There seems to be two problems for the OP. One is that it can be (although not in all cases eg the students of Phuntsok Rinpoche) much harder to verify the credentials of a Buddhist teacher coming directly from Tibet. The other is that anyone who has specific concerns and/or information about a Tibetan Buddhist teacher may also have samaya with them and therefore would be unlikely to say anything publicly against them. This means that any concerns that surface may not be able to be confirmed - however frustrating that is.
Yes, very true.
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:50 pm
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:36 pm I've attended sessions and empowerments with this teacher,
You've already taken empowerments with this person. You've sealed the deal. All you are going to do is wind up breaking your samaya if continue down this path.
Inquiring about a teacher (post empowerment) can be considered as such? So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?

Going back to the teacher in question, I will say that I feel nothing but respect for what I have experienced so far, and that is why the more rational side of me has been seeking to find out more about him, and I am not seeking out things to create any cause for disparagement or disrespect. If I am doing so too late however, then I will not pursue it any further for now.

I suppose there is a bit of (an unfounded as of now especially) fear of commitment due to upbringing and culture.
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Tilopa
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Tilopa »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
Not necessarily. Deciding you no longer want to take teachings from him is not in itself breaking samaya. You can with gratitude and respect politely take your leave and move on. But if you disparage, criticize, ridicule or despise the person from whom you receive empowerment then yes, that's quite serious.
Malcolm
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Malcolm »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am Inquiring about a teacher (post empowerment) can be considered as such?
Depends, you should have made your inquiries before receiving samayas.

So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
That depends on how they go about it. If they leave quietly, no. If they raise hell and cause a scandal themselves, then yes, it is bad for all involved.
gelukman
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by gelukman »

I think you have every right to choose your teacher according your beliefs.
Your view may change due time what you consider to be the highest view. Then of course
naturally you will need to change things. Nothing funny about that.

After all no one cares at all what you choose. The teacher may not even remember you
or have ever met you. And it is about your life, your choices in this life and will your reach
liberation or know practices related to the highest view.
Probably no one will guide you to the highest view or to the natural state. This is the same
for every one else. One need to actively search it out. Or you cards will be
those of lesser vehicle. Who is there to blame? Our bad choices.
Nicholas2727
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Nicholas2727 »

I can't speak directly about him, but my teacher met him a few times and said he seemed like a great Lama and I also listened to his interview with Robert Thurman where he was spoken of pretty highly. You can listen to the interview here

Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Tilopa wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:37 pm
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
Not necessarily. Deciding you no longer want to take teachings from him is not in itself breaking samaya. You can with gratitude and respect politely take your leave and move on. But if you disparage, criticize, ridicule or despise the person from whom you receive empowerment then yes, that's quite serious.
I see. This approach definitely makes more sense to me. Thank you for the clarification.

It brings up some other questions that move away from the topic, so I'll see if they have been answered elsewhere on the forums.
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:32 pm
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am Inquiring about a teacher (post empowerment) can be considered as such?
Depends, you should have made your inquiries before receiving samayas.

So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
That depends on how they go about it. If they leave quietly, no. If they raise hell and cause a scandal themselves, then yes, it is bad for all involved.
To your first point, yes. I absolutely should have.

During the height of the pandemic I somehow stumbled across Kalachakra teachings given by him, and they included all the vows, precepts, and empowerments associated with said teachings. Though only just beginning my foray into Vajrayana at the time, I was so excited for the opportunity I jumped at it. This of course has led to ngondro lung and jenangs in other practices with Rinpoche.

Overall, I don't regret the decision, but I do recognize I moved faster than is recommended, and I am playing catch up in some aspects and in learning, and doubt does sometimes come to my actions in moving too fast.

To your second point and out of curiosity, does raising hell here mean bring public attention to the bad behavior of a teacher?

This seems like a very confusing area, so if there are more resources I'll have to learn more and look elsewhere on the forums like I mentioned. It's also not the main topic of this thread, so I will make that my last question on that aspect of samaya and teacher/student relationships.
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Tilopa
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Tilopa »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:26 am This seems like a very confusing area, so if there are more resources I'll have to learn more and look elsewhere on the forums like I mentioned. It's also not the main topic of this thread, so I will make that my last question on that aspect of samaya and teacher/student relationships.
This might be helpful

https://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_A ... _Lama.html
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Ayu
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ayu »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am ... So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
...
AFAIK, if a teacher broke his Samaya to be a good teacher, he broke the bonds. Student's samaya only applies to intact dharmic behavior.
Samaya concerns the dharma path. It does not mean one has to follow a ruthless person. One can include the teacher of the past in one's picture of Vajradhara, but one doesn't need to follow an immoral destructive person.

I can get this confusing stance by concidering that human beings have many different facettes. My teacher is the Dharma person. If there were aspects in his personality that would contravene the Dharma, then these aspects I wouldn't have any samaya with.
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by zerwe »

Ayu wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:56 am
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am ... So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
...
AFAIK, if a teacher broke his Samaya to be a good teacher, he broke the bonds. Student's samaya only applies to intact dharmic behavior.
Samaya concerns the dharma path. It does not mean one has to follow a ruthless person. One can include the teacher of the past in one's picture of Vajradhara, but one doesn't need to follow an immoral destructive person.
In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?

Shaun :namaste:
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Ayu
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ayu »

zerwe wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:54 pm
Ayu wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:56 am
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 am ... So, and this is in general and not pertaining to my original question, if a teacher does commit a scandal, then those students who renounce that teacher break samaya?
...
AFAIK, if a teacher broke his Samaya to be a good teacher, he broke the bonds. Student's samaya only applies to intact dharmic behavior.
Samaya concerns the dharma path. It does not mean one has to follow a ruthless person. One can include the teacher of the past in one's picture of Vajradhara, but one doesn't need to follow an immoral destructive person.
In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?

Shaun :namaste:
I have no idea. I hope some knowledgeable member answers.
I suppose, it depends on which practices we are talking about.
As personal decision, I don't think, I would want to give up my practice, but I don't know how such a drama would work on my motivation.
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Malcolm »

zerwe wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 2:54 pm
In reading this thread one question does come to mind. If you politely step away from said teacher, then should you no longer engage in the practices you have received?
Generally, unless you have received them from other teachers as well, in whom you have faith and confidence.
Malcolm
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Malcolm »

Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:26 am
To your second point and out of curiosity, does raising hell here mean bring public attention to the bad behavior of a teacher?
In general, yes, it means not bring public attention to what one perceives as the negative behavior of a teacher with whom one has entered into samaya. Criticizing them for their drinking habits, drug habits, spending habits, eating habits, personal habits, social habits and skills, and so on, is really not permissible. Of course, if they are not your teacher, you can criticize them for these issues as much as you like, with the caveat that you may be criticizing a bodhisattva.

This does not apply, however, in case where the teacher has themselves utterly broken their samaya with their students, where they have actually harmed the lives and health of their students, which is quite another thing. In this case, no obligation exists between teacher and and of their students. [And please, peanut gallery, refrain from the Tilopa-Naropa anecdotes].
This seems like a very confusing area, so if there are more resources I'll have to learn more and look elsewhere on the forums like I mentioned. It's also not the main topic of this thread, so I will make that my last question on that aspect of samaya and teacher/student relationships.
The best thing to do, in the beginning, is to choose well-known teachers with proven track records over many years.
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

gelukman wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:46 pm I think you have every right to choose your teacher according your beliefs.
Your view may change due time what you consider to be the highest view. Then of course
naturally you will need to change things. Nothing funny about that.

After all no one cares at all what you choose. The teacher may not even remember you
or have ever met you. And it is about your life, your choices in this life and will your reach
liberation or know practices related to the highest view.
Probably no one will guide you to the highest view or to the natural state. This is the same
for every one else. One need to actively search it out. Or you cards will be
those of lesser vehicle. Who is there to blame? Our bad choices.
Thank you for your insight. :anjali:

In today's day and age your thoughts do carry some weight and have merit to consider. Depending on your views, we have access to so many teachings and empowerments, and teachers now, but on that same token it can lead to more "shallow" relationships with teachers as we may be unable to meet or interact with them in person, and due to the sheer amount of people experimenting with alternative traditions, a teacher can now have a million students from around the world.

It's a big big world!
Ikkyu's_Son
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Re: Regarding Shar Khentrul Rinpoché Jamphel Lodrö (No Debates Please)

Post by Ikkyu's_Son »

Tilopa wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:51 am
Gaden_Wangchuk wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 5:26 am This seems like a very confusing area, so if there are more resources I'll have to learn more and look elsewhere on the forums like I mentioned. It's also not the main topic of this thread, so I will make that my last question on that aspect of samaya and teacher/student relationships.
This might be helpful

https://info-buddhism.com/Questioning_A ... _Lama.html
That was extremely helpful and concise. Thank you! :anjali:
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