Dharma Protectors of HYT

Lobsang Damchoi
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Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Lobsang Damchoi »

Question about practice: if you have a full initiation into a deity practice at Anuttarayoga level, can you do brief sadhanas for the Dharma protector of that practice (no self-generation as the Protector), or would you need a separate initiation specially for that Protector?? Same question for just reciting the mantras of that Dharma protector.

Thanks much.

L.D. (PS -- I have asked one guru with respect to a specific practice, but was wondering if there was a general guideline that would apply to all Gelug HYT systems...)
Lobsang Damchoi
zerwe
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by zerwe »

Lobsang Damchoi wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:18 am Question about practice: if you have a full initiation into a deity practice at Anuttarayoga level, can you do brief sadhanas for the Dharma protector of that practice (no self-generation as the Protector), or would you need a separate initiation specially for that Protector?? Same question for just reciting the mantras of that Dharma protector.

Thanks much.

L.D. (PS -- I have asked one guru with respect to a specific practice, but was wondering if there was a general guideline that would apply to all Gelug HYT systems...)
I haven't heard of a general answer for all Gelug HYT and have had the same question myself. From what I understand, protector practice isn't something that you undertake on your own accord. The opinions regarding this, that I have heard, is that one should have some fairly extensive generation stage practice under their belt prior to engaging in such practice. Two answers that I am aware of are;

1) It is up to your Lama
--(the one exception I have heard granted by a particular teacher is Kalarupa in the context of having received full initiation of Vajrabhairava. With that said, there are teachings that one should receive to practice something like Drug Chu Ma, as well as, if possible you should seek the separate initiations)

2) You need separate initiation/lung for mantra/practice of other protectors and instructions/ support from your Lama

*Also, my own question and theoretical speculation, I believe that someone would need to have accomplished the accumulation retreat on the principal deity first as this grants permission to engage in activities?

Again, all this points to a question for Lama

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Ayu »

After exchanging much information with other Tibetan Buddhists online, I don't believe there is much of a general rule for all people.
It depends on teacher and person (student).
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Lobsang Damchoi »

Thanks much for the responses. For this issue there are a lot of complicating factors at play. For example:

---The specific Protector in question seems to be "bigger" (practiced more) in the Kagyu and Sakya traditions.
---It's hard to find Gelug lamas that are able to do the all the Protector initiations.
---I have an initiation for the deity -- but it's for a different form (different color and number of arms).
---The short Protector sadhana that I'd like to do is, I think, very similar, or at least analogous, to the Kalarupa/Karmayama section of the long Vajrabhairava sadhana (except with more mantras); and, of course, one only needs the Vajrabhairava initiation to do that sadhana.
---In the practical world of Western Buddhism, initiations or formal transmissions are often not required by lamas for recitation of yidam mantras (I can think of 3 "concrete" examples besides Chenrezig and Dorje Sempa).

I do feel drawn to this Protector and his mantras. Having four different HYT initiations (some repeated) in all three Sarma traditions, am I likely to collect negative karma (for myself or my guru) if I do this practice??

Thanks.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Ayu »

Lobsang Damchoi wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:16 pm Thanks much for the responses. For this issue there are a lot of complicating factors at play. For example:

---The specific Protector in question seems to be "bigger" (practiced more) in the Kagyu and Sakya traditions.
---It's hard to find Gelug lamas that are able to do the all the Protector initiations.
---I have an initiation for the deity -- but it's for a different form (different color and number of arms).
---The short Protector sadhana that I'd like to do is, I think, very similar, or at least analogous, to the Kalarupa/Karmayama section of the long Vajrabhairava sadhana (except with more mantras); and, of course, one only needs the Vajrabhairava initiation to do that sadhana.
---In the practical world of Western Buddhism, initiations or formal transmissions are often not required by lamas for recitation of yidam mantras (I can think of 3 "concrete" examples besides Chenrezig and Dorje Sempa).

I do feel drawn to this Protector and his mantras. Having four different HYT initiations (some repeated) in all three Sarma traditions, am I likely to collect negative karma (for myself or my guru) if I do this practice??

Thanks.
If the short practice that you are attracted to is from Sakya or Kagyu, you can practice it anyhow, I believe. There's no sectarianism or antagonism amongst the lineages. At least not from Gelug's side AFAIK.
This is really and absolutely a question that you should pose to your teacher, in best case from face to face.
I hope he answers to you soon.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by jmlee369 »

Lobsang Damchoi wrote: Tue Dec 14, 2021 7:16 pm Thanks much for the responses. For this issue there are a lot of complicating factors at play. For example:

---The specific Protector in question seems to be "bigger" (practiced more) in the Kagyu and Sakya traditions.
---It's hard to find Gelug lamas that are able to do the all the Protector initiations.
---I have an initiation for the deity -- but it's for a different form (different color and number of arms).
---The short Protector sadhana that I'd like to do is, I think, very similar, or at least analogous, to the Kalarupa/Karmayama section of the long Vajrabhairava sadhana (except with more mantras); and, of course, one only needs the Vajrabhairava initiation to do that sadhana.
---In the practical world of Western Buddhism, initiations or formal transmissions are often not required by lamas for recitation of yidam mantras (I can think of 3 "concrete" examples besides Chenrezig and Dorje Sempa).

I do feel drawn to this Protector and his mantras. Having four different HYT initiations (some repeated) in all three Sarma traditions, am I likely to collect negative karma (for myself or my guru) if I do this practice??

Thanks.
My general feeling is that you should not do the practice nor recite the mantra (other than what you received in initiation). I have been taught explicitly that even for the same deity, if you do not have the initiation for that specific lineage (in this case Ghantapa and Luipa transmissions of Chakrasamvara) then you should not even read sadhanas of that lineage, despite having initiation in another lineage. Most of us don't need to be engaging in particular protector practices. After all, there is no protector without the guru, and if the guru has not accepted your request to give transmission for this practice, there will be a reason behind that. Also most protector practices are not sadhanas, they are different types of rituals like torma offerings, kangso, serkyem, etc. For example the Kalarupa part of the Vajrabhairava sadhana, that is simply a torma offering practice. These all have different requirements to perform. For some protector rituals, even if you have received the protector's initiation and there is no self-generation as the protector, you actually need to have completed the enabling (le-rung) retreat of your yidam to do the ritual.

Having said that, there are some major exceptions. One is if the practice is being done in a public group setting, then people can go along with the text. This I have seen mentioned explicitly regarding one of the activities to be done only after completing the enabling retreat, consecration if I remember correctly, where members of the assembly could recite even if they weren't personally qualified, and I've seen it applied in many other situations also. The other is, of course, if you have been given permission by your guru.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by tony_montana »

This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector? I thought we always generate as a HYT Ista-devata. Although, what confuses me in that regard is that protector initiations seem to have body/vase empowerments if I'm not mistaken -- what specifically do those authorize if speech empowerment is primarily mantra-transmission.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Ayu »

tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:42 pm This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector? I thought we always generate as a HYT Ista-devata. Although, what confuses me in that regard is that protector initiations seem to have body/vase empowerments if I'm not mistaken -- what specifically do those authorize if speech empowerment is primarily mantra-transmission.
Maybe I'm the noob, pardon me.
But I don't understand, why you ask these questions at this (wrong) place?
Either you take an empowerment, then you can ask all these things to the empowerment giver. Or it's not interesting at all, because these things differ in relation to what empowerment you took exactly.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by tony_montana »

Ayu wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:44 pm
tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:42 pm This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector? I thought we always generate as a HYT Ista-devata. Although, what confuses me in that regard is that protector initiations seem to have body/vase empowerments if I'm not mistaken -- what specifically do those authorize if speech empowerment is primarily mantra-transmission.
Maybe I'm the noob, pardon me.
But I don't understand, why you ask these questions at this (wrong) place?
Either you take an empowerment, then you can ask all these things to the empowerment giver. Or it's not interesting at all, because these things differ in relation to what empowerment you took exactly.
Sorry, I was asking that in general, especially as I have never come across Protectors being practiced in self-generation. I will not ask any questions on this topic again.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Lobsang Damchoi »

Thanks so much for the perspectives. Perhaps it's best if I move any further discussion over to "Tantra Talk." I was hoping there might be some general guidelines about Dharma protectors for Gelugpas.
.
In closing just a few general notes that may be helpful:
I have two Gelug Vajrayana gurus that know me & are available for questions. So far I've approached one w/ my query. He said it depended on the Protector. For one Protector it was ok to do sadhanas but not the retreat; for another, I had to limit myself to mantras.
The practice I wanted to do comes from the Rinjung Gyatsa & it's not a torma offering practice.
It's not merely that I'm "attracted" to this practice; this Protector is the main protector of my primary HYT practice (iow my daily practice), so I'm happy to have the ok on mantra recitation.

Tony Montana's question seems reasonable -- none of the Protector practices I've seen involve self-generation as the Protector. But evidently there are certain deities that can function either as the main focus of a yidam deity practice or as a protector.

Best regards,
L.D.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by jmlee369 »

tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:42 pm This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector? I thought we always generate as a HYT Ista-devata. Although, what confuses me in that regard is that protector initiations seem to have body/vase empowerments if I'm not mistaken -- what specifically do those authorize if speech empowerment is primarily mantra-transmission.
As with most initiations, you receive the initiation on the basis of self-generating as the deity. But as far as I know they are given as jenang, so will not have a vase empowerment, only a body blessing. A full HYT wangchen is usually a prerequisite.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by zerwe »

tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 7:00 pm
Ayu wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 6:44 pm
tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:42 pm This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector? I thought we always generate as a HYT Ista-devata. Although, what confuses me in that regard is that protector initiations seem to have body/vase empowerments if I'm not mistaken -- what specifically do those authorize if speech empowerment is primarily mantra-transmission.
Maybe I'm the noob, pardon me.
But I don't understand, why you ask these questions at this (wrong) place?
Either you take an empowerment, then you can ask all these things to the empowerment giver. Or it's not interesting at all, because these things differ in relation to what empowerment you took exactly.
Sorry, I was asking that in general, especially as I have never come across Protectors being practiced in self-generation. I will not ask any questions on this topic again.
My understanding (and I would consider this a general public understanding--no intention to post restricted information) is that protectors are not practiced as a self-generation. You are self-generating as the Yidam and inviting/interacting with them inside the mandala. The exceptions to this, if there are any, I am not aware of. Again, this is not something that I have any experience with, but there may be a more definitive answer out there somewhere probably from one's guru.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Malcolm »

tony_montana wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:42 pm This might be uber-noob question, I beg for patience. But, do we ever self-generate as a Protector?
Yes, we can, provided we have the right transmission and know what we are doing. Otherwise, better not. There are some protectors however which are almost always give as self-generation, the so-called White Mahākāla (dgon dkar) is one of these, even though white and mahākāla are contradictions in terms.

In all schools, Mahākāla is frequently given as a self-generation practice.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by lelopa »

Sometimes Ekajati (and somewhere else even Rahula and Dorje Legpa) is a yidam, or self-generation too. There is a pdf somewhere in the web - a terma- with this sadhana (I've lost it from the computer and cannot find it anymore :crying: ). It was a "collected protector sadhanas" or something like that, I can't remember who the terton was.
And in Drikung. I think it is in Rinchen Phuntsok's "three maroon protectors"
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by American Friend »

One does not self generate as a Dharma Protector, one self generates as a Yidam. As the Yidam you can work with Protectors but really, just be friends with them, I would be careful about asking for something from them!!!
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Kunga »

As Malcolm pointed out, you can self-generate as a supramundane protector, providing you have the right transmission. The 8 deity Mahakala in Sakya, for example, is front-generation; there are empowerments for Dorje Gur (from Bari Lotsawa for example) where you definitely self-generate as the Protector. The same with Four Face Mahakala, other Mahakalas (inc. Gonkar) and other enlightened Protectors.

Edit: I know one Sakya Lama who did years of retreat on Dorje Gur. It's not common these days to practice Protectors as yidams (as a main practice), but it does happen.
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by lelopa »

American Friend wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 12:18 am One does not self generate as a Dharma Protector, one self generates as a Yidam. As the Yidam you can work with Protectors but really, just be friends with them, I would be careful about asking for something from them!!!
You forgot to begin this post with "Afaik..." :mrgreen:
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by American Friend »

I hear you guys. I think this is more of a semantics thing. Yes, in Mahakala practices there is self generation. I mean all tantras have some sort of "protection" built in. Yamantaka for example, is sometimes called a "protector". And if say, Mahakala is a Supramundane Protector, that means they are a Buddha! Thus they could have a tantra connected to them. There is no "Nechung" tantra because Nechung is a Mundane Protector. So no one "arises" as Nechung, although some people DO get "possessed" by him! LOL. More conservative Buddhists tend to not want to get too involved with "protectors" where others like having fun and calling on their "buddies" to make things happen..(playing with spirits). But as Kyabje Dagyab Rinpoche told us, the only time you should talk to the protectors is if you can COMMAND them. And most of us are not at that level, ergo he discouraged it. Cheers!
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Thousand thousand »

For Drugchuma I know isn't enough the empowerment of Vajrabairava.
You need also complete the 100000 retreat + fire puja.
Or the kalarupa empowerment :D :D :D
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Re: Dharma Protectors of HYT

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Thousand thousand wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:49 pm For Drugchuma I know isn't enough the empowerment of Vajrabairava.
You need also complete the 100000 retreat + fire puja.
Or the kalarupa empowerment :D :D :D
I don't think that's strictly true, there's a tradition of doing the drukchuma everyday during the enabling retreat or at least the first, middle and last days.
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