The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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clyde
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The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by clyde »

Brad Warner reposted a video he had done some time earlier. It’s a review of a Japanese movie which shows modern Japanese Zen. I had not seen the original post and found the many, many scenes from the movie (with subtitles) and Brad’s commentary interesting.

So here is The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:02 am Brad Warner reposted a video he had done some time earlier. It’s a review of a Japanese movie which shows modern Japanese Zen. I had not seen the original post and found the many, many scenes from the movie (with subtitles) and Brad’s commentary interesting.

So here is The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!
What truth do you mean? This is popular comedy film FANCY DANCE from 1989, so the truth is more about Japanese sense of humor from the late 80`s featuring soto monastery. The other movie with almost same actors was made about rinzai monastery around 1990 in response to the popularity of the FANCY DANCE. I do not know how anyone could make serious comments on Japanese zen based on a comedy.

Comedies about religion and monks were popular in Japan for ages, what one may find in pictures and other forms, which survived till today..
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clyde
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by clyde »

I think Brad makes it clear that this is a comedy, but it does show and Brad does comment on traditional Japanese Soto Zen temple customs, including the inheritance of temples, rituals and training, as well as Japanese stereotypes - at least as seen by a Westerner who lived in Japan, spoke Japanese, and became a Zen monk.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:24 pm I think Brad makes it clear that this is a comedy, but it does show and Brad does comment on traditional Japanese Soto Zen temple customs, including the inheritance of temples, rituals and training, as well as Japanese stereotypes - at least as seen by a Westerner who lived in Japan, spoke Japanese, and became a Zen monk.
I do not recall any of Nishijima`s western students who did really complete zen training in Japan, at least in the monastery etc. they sat with Nishijima in Ichikawa in his zendo which was made in a company building, and I guess they had kind of dormitory or so. Anyway I sent there some lost Westerners, and just talked to Nishijima on the phone probably a few times. Those ordained by him whom I knew actually knew nothing about monastic training. Nishijima himself never made monastic training himself, though he was very devoted to publishing books, and his English was pretty good.
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clyde
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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I don’t know much about Nishijima. I do know that he was ordained as a Zen priest in the Soto Zen tradition, but was somewhat of an outsider.

I don’t know everything about Brad Warner’s training, but he was ordained as as Zen priest by Nishijima, so perhaps my use of the term “monk” (which usually implies celibacy, though not in Japan) was misleading.

In any event, even if Brad didn’t undergo traditional Soto Zen “monk training”, that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know about it. If you watched the video, it’s clear that Brad is familiar with such training.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:58 am I don’t know much about Nishijima. I do know that he was ordained as a Zen priest in the Soto Zen tradition, but was somewhat of an outsider.
Yes he was an outsider in a way. So he created his own group called Dogen Sagha, published a lot of books. In fact he was a businessman and worked full time untill his retirment. Then he became a zen master for many Westerners. In Japan nobody cared about his activity etc. there are just people like he was, who become monks after they go on pension. But mostly they cannot do any training or so. So they mostly do some of their own activity.

As for the group of Rev. Nishijima as far as I know his disciples, monks included, had just regular work, mostly as English teachers, and had zazen together. So even if they were ordained, dod some sitting or sesshin, they did not go through rigorous zen training for years. So I met some soto teachers from the West who spent 'many years' in Japan but they stayed with their family, girlfriends, work, language school etc. But back at home they claim 'many years' in Japan training zen. It is not true. Thye just lived more or less same life like at home. So it does not mean much all these years in Japan if one was just an outsider to traditional training, monasteries and public temples.

BTW those Western zen masters due to their personal Japanese 'history', get kind of authority.
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clyde
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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I believe Nishijima was ordained and given shiho by a Zen Master in the Sotoshu. As for Brad, he doesn’t make any false claims about his life and training. He lived and worked in Japan, and was ordained as a Zen priest by Nishijima. He doesn’t claim any special authority because of his time in Japan.

Perhaps if you watched the video, you could comment on what Brad missed and/or misunderstood.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

clyde wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:04 pm


Perhaps if you watched the video, you could comment on what Brad missed and/or misunderstood.
Yeah I will do and write back...
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

Matylda wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:06 pm
clyde wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:04 pm


Perhaps if you watched the video, you could comment on what Brad missed and/or misunderstood.
Yeah I will do and write back...
I wrote back already a few days ago and now I see it was not posted, to my surprise. I watched the video. Well it is still more than strange to comment on a comedy movie and to call it The TRUTH about Japanese zen! in the movie there are a lot of funny things, just imagination of the screenwriter and the director of the film. No facts in the real temple or monastic life... well one can belive what one wants, including the THRUTH as spoken above. There are some more reliable documentaries on YT, but in Japanese. There are also many more comedies about monks, again in Japanese, so the English audience has no chance to see it.
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Zhen Li
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Zhen Li »

It's easy to be critical because of a title, but titles are always to get attention. It was an interesting video, and it looks like a good film.
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by Matylda »

Zhen Li wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:10 am It's easy to be critical because of a title, but titles are always to get attention. It was an interesting video, and it looks like a good film.
I think so, film is very good and funny... it shows some serious aspects of monastic training and complete fiction which never happens in the monastic environment.
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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While I don't go for that kind of humor, I think the fellow who titled his video, "the TRUTH" was doing so tongue in cheek. The millennials seems to appreciate that kind of absurdism and that seems to be his audience.

I know nothing about Zen monasteries in Japan that I didn't learn watching Ikkyu-san when I was a kid so can't comment on any particular deatails, but seems like a pretty standard Japanese comedy commenting on the intersection of tradition and modernity. One of the first times I visited Hieizan, I was shocked by a monk in the Asian squat smoking a cigarette on a break from sweeping the walkway. By the time I was in a combini on Koyasan years later, I just chuckled watching a monk buy a bunch of tall boys and packs of smokes. I've partied hard on occasion in Tokyo with men shaved cue ball clean. They exuded a certain joy and enthusiasm that made it a good time.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Matylda
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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Queequeg wrote: Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:48 pm
One of the first times I visited Hieizan, I was shocked by a monk in the Asian squat smoking a cigarette on a break from sweeping the walkway. By the time I was in a combini on Koyasan years later, I just chuckled watching a monk buy a bunch of tall boys and packs of smokes. I've partied hard on occasion in Tokyo with men shaved cue ball clean. They exuded a certain joy and enthusiasm that made it a good time.
Well these kind of things one may find in all Buddhist coutries in Asia, not only in Japan.
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clyde
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

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Regarding contemporary Zen in Japan, here is a link to a recent post by Bukkokuji monk, Kogen Czarnik (guest blogger on Dosho Port’s Wild Fox Zen blog) about that subject and Zen in America:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxze ... japan.html
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: The TRUTH About Japanese Zen!

Post by KeithA »

clyde wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:26 am Regarding contemporary Zen in Japan, here is a link to a recent post by Bukkokuji monk, Kogen Czarnik (guest blogger on Dosho Port’s Wild Fox Zen blog) about that subject and Zen in America:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfoxze ... japan.html
Pretty glum article. Other religions have the problem. Dwindling church goers have led to lots of closures where I live.

Glad I practice where I do. Fairly diverse group, fun to be around. We don’t flap our gums too much. We jut sit a lot, and definitely don’t take ourselves too seriously.

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When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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