Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

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cjdevries
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Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by cjdevries »

"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Kim O'Hara »

It would be good if it is true but all can see is a distorted low-res pic. Can you supply a few words? Or a link?

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Tills ljuset tar oss
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Tills ljuset tar oss »

There was a chinese pure land master who said they played sutras over their field and that they asked the bugs kindly to leave. They did.

The field that recieved no special attention had bugs in it.
jimmi
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by jimmi »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:42 am It would be good if it is true but all can see is a distorted low-res pic. Can you supply a few words? Or a link?

:coffee:
Kim
The farmer is walking along the potato rows with a rotating broom that brushes the potato beetles into a collection basket where they are contained, more or less alive, until they are disposed of in some way. I wonder what he does with them all. :( :(
Knotty Veneer
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Knotty Veneer »

jimmi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:48 pm The farmer is walking along the potato rows with a rotating broom that brushes the potato beetles into a collection basket where they are contained, more or less alive, until they are disposed of in some way. I wonder what he does with them all. :( :(
Beetle juice? -Don't try saying that three times!
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Ayu
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Ayu »

jimmi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 1:48 pm
Kim O'Hara wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:42 am It would be good if it is true but all can see is a distorted low-res pic. Can you supply a few words? Or a link?

:coffee:
Kim
The farmer is walking along the potato rows with a rotating broom that brushes the potato beetles into a collection basket where they are contained, more or less alive, until they are disposed of in some way. I wonder what he does with them all. :( :(
That doesn't sound like being harmless for the bugs. Maybe it's harmless from an environmental POV.
But since bugs are very fragile, it's not harmless from an Ahimsa-POV.
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Sādhaka
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Sādhaka »

Perhaps he uses the insects as feed for chickens, or fish farms, etc.?

Maybe not, but it’s an idea.
Genjo Conan
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Genjo Conan »

I lived on a small organic farm for a little while. I wasn't a farm worker myself but I helped support those who were, and I feel that I got a sense of the work.

If there's a way to farm without killing sentient beings, I'm not aware of it. That's not to say that we can't lessen that harm, or that we shouldn't try. But the act of growing food to sustain life is intimately connected with death, and we shouldn't forget that.
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Ayu »

Genjo Conan wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:35 pm I lived on a small organic farm for a little while. I wasn't a farm worker myself but I helped support those who were, and I feel that I got a sense of the work.

If there's a way to farm without killing sentient beings, I'm not aware of it. That's not to say that we can't lessen that harm, or that we shouldn't try. But the act of growing food to sustain life is intimately connected with death, and we shouldn't forget that.
You're right.
In my former post, I was thinking of the strict bikkhu perspective on not killing.

I was vegetable gardener in an ecological project for five years and due to this work I know many ecological remedies to keep plants healthy and save the bees etc.
But when I was asked to take care of the tiny garden of our buddhist temple, it really gave me a lot of headache, because I'm not allowed to kill a single bug. That's really difficult, because on the other hand they want to have it perfectly beautiful and nice.

The granny of the temple makes a better job now than I ever could. It seems to me, she keeps the garden healthy by prayers, because she doesn't even want to spray urtica tea which only disturbs but doesn't kill the bugs.
cjdevries
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by cjdevries »

I have a vegetable garden and I live with someone who is a professional gardener and garden designer. My housemate explained to me that there is no way to garden properly without killing some bugs; for instance there are certain areas where pests can get to the root or center of plants and do damage so water must be sprayed at the root of the plant so the pests get the idea that they can't go there. I think it is almost impossible to go completely without killing if you want to preserve plants; we can only do our best.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Kim O'Hara »

cjdevries wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:30 pm I have a vegetable garden and I live with someone who is a professional gardener and garden designer. My housemate explained to me that there is no way to garden properly without killing some bugs; for instance there are certain areas where pests can get to the root or center of plants and do damage so water must be sprayed at the root of the plant so the pests get the idea that they can't go there. I think it is almost impossible to go completely without killing if you want to preserve plants; we can only do our best.
Absolutely correct.

To make it even more universal: any changes we make in our garden are designed to help some plants or animals at the expense of others. A :quoteunquote: weed :quoteunquote: is a plant where we don't want it. An :quoteunquote: insect pest :quoteunquote: is likewise a bug where we don't want it.
We pull out a weed (kill it) so that a plant we value has a better life. We remove (or kill) a plant-eating bug for the same reason (and if we remove it, it probably ends up in a place that's worse for it). Even if we introduce or encourage an animal which eats those plant-eating bugs, we will be killing the plant-eaters by proxy, and if we 'discourage' them, the bugs will likely struggle to survive in a less-suitable (for them) environment.

And of course if we don't make any changes in our gardens, pretty soon they will be weed-patches with thriving bug populations. That's good karma, I guess, except that our neighbours might hate us.

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bowsamic
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by bowsamic »

Personally I think it's best to refrain from any sort of gardening as a Buddhist practitioner, except maybe in closed indoor pots. It is simply too risky from a karmic point of view
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Kim O'Hara »

bowsamic wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:51 pm Personally I think it's best to refrain from any sort of gardening as a Buddhist practitioner, except maybe in closed indoor pots. It is simply too risky from a karmic point of view
That attitude, applied consistently, leads quickly to starvation and death, and therefore the waste of this precious human life. Someone has to do the gardening/farming to supply our food, and we must accept moral responsibility for the harm that that does.
IMO the only sensible way forward is to accept that we have as much right to life as any other creature, and any other creature has as much right to freedom from suffering as we have, and get on with living a low-impact life. Minimise suffering, minimise waste, minimise harm, but know that the suffering can't be avoided completely.

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bowsamic
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by bowsamic »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:56 pm
bowsamic wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:51 pm Personally I think it's best to refrain from any sort of gardening as a Buddhist practitioner, except maybe in closed indoor pots. It is simply too risky from a karmic point of view
That attitude, applied consistently, leads quickly to starvation and death, and therefore the waste of this precious human life. Someone has to do the gardening/farming to supply our food, and we must accept moral responsibility for the harm that that does.
IMO the only sensible way forward is to accept that we have as much right to life as any other creature, and any other creature has as much right to freedom from suffering as we have, and get on with living a low-impact life. Minimise suffering, minimise waste, minimise harm, but know that the suffering can't be avoided completely.

:namaste:
Kim
Someone has to do it, and not everyone must follow the Buddhist precepts in this lifetime. Basically, we should have a non-Buddhist do it. Even Thich Nhat Hanh says it's very hard to be a farmer and a Buddhist at the same time!

I also don't agree that we must accept moral responsibility. The Buddha famously taught that the monastics could eat meat given to them, so long as it wasn't killed specifically for them. Clearly there is some difference between eating the food created via breaking precepts, compared to actually breaking them yourself.

Regardless, think of it this way: are you going to directly kill more beings if you farm your own food, or if you buy it from someone else? Clearly the former entails less killing by you yourself. Many might argue that you are still just as complicit in that killing, however the Buddha did not seem to see it this way.
Last edited by bowsamic on Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Kim O'Hara »

bowsamic wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:21 am
Kim O'Hara wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 10:56 pm
bowsamic wrote: Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:51 pm Personally I think it's best to refrain from any sort of gardening as a Buddhist practitioner, except maybe in closed indoor pots. It is simply too risky from a karmic point of view
That attitude, applied consistently, leads quickly to starvation and death, and therefore the waste of this precious human life. Someone has to do the gardening/farming to supply our food, and we must accept moral responsibility for the harm that that does.
IMO the only sensible way forward is to accept that we have as much right to life as any other creature, and any other creature has as much right to freedom from suffering as we have, and get on with living a low-impact life. Minimise suffering, minimise waste, minimise harm, but know that the suffering can't be avoided completely.

:namaste:
Kim
Someone has to do it, and not everyone must follow the Buddhist precepts in this lifetime.
The precepts are guidelines for good morality and it would be good for everyone, Buddhist or not, to follow them.
Basically, we should have a non-Buddhist do it. Even Thich Nhat Hanh says it's very hard to be a farmer and a Buddhist at the same time!
With all due respect to TNH, there are millions of Buddhist farmers in SE Asia. They do their best to keep the precepts while feeding their families, and doing our best is what I'm arguing we should do.
And shifting the action to someone else does not, IMO, shift the responsibility for it. Using another person to kill my chicken is not fundamentally different from using an axe to kill it myself.
I also don't agree that we must accept moral responsibility. The Buddha famously taught that the monastics could eat meat given to them, so long as it wasn't killed specifically for them. Clearly there is some difference between eating the food created via breaking precepts, compared to actually breaking them yourself.
The monastics' situation is different from ours in a few important respects. Firstly, they are held to higher standards of behaviour than lay people. Secondly, they are dependent on charity - they have no choice but to eat what they are given, both for practical reasons and because refusing it may offend the givers.
Thirdly, there is a sense in which meat on the supermarket shelf has been killed specifically for us if we regularly buy it. The market is reasonably efficient and if we all stopped buying meat, the producers would stop killing animals for us.
Regardless, think of it this way: are you going to directly kill more beings if you farm your own food, or if you buy it from someone else? Clearly the former entails less killing by you yourself. Many might argue that you are still just as complicit in that killing, however the Buddha did not seem to see it this way.
I think you meant 'latter', not 'former'. If you can clarify, I can answer. :smile:

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bowsamic
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by bowsamic »

Kim O'Hara wrote: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:04 pm With all due respect to TNH, there are millions of Buddhist farmers in SE Asia. They do their best to keep the precepts while feeding their families, and doing our best is what I'm arguing we should do.
And shifting the action to someone else does not, IMO, shift the responsibility for it. Using another person to kill my chicken is not fundamentally different from using an axe to kill it myself.
I used to agree that shifting the action doesn't shift the responsibility, but that doesn't seem to be in line with what the Buddha taught about karma, which seems to reflect more an idea of individual actions being specifically unique. It isn't the outcome that is important, it is the individual intentional action.
The monastics' situation is different from ours in a few important respects. Firstly, they are held to higher standards of behaviour than lay people. Secondly, they are dependent on charity - they have no choice but to eat what they are given, both for practical reasons and because refusing it may offend the givers.
Thirdly, there is a sense in which meat on the supermarket shelf has been killed specifically for us if we regularly buy it. The market is reasonably efficient and if we all stopped buying meat, the producers would stop killing animals for us.
As for the first precept, monastics are only held to the higher standard in that they will be expelled from the monastic order by doing so. The karmic outcome isn't better for a lay person to kill compared to a monastic to kill. For the second part, that's not quite true, monastics in China would own farms and grow their own food for example. Finally, for the third point, I assume you could buy meat back when the Buddha was alive, and as far as I'm aware he did not teach to lay people that this was a first precept violation.
I think you meant 'latter', not 'former'. If you can clarify, I can answer. :smile:
Yes, you are correct
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Stromek »

Many of us live in urban or formerly rural areas with large buildings that lack gardening areas, facilities, or permissions. When my husband and I (practicing Tibetan Buddhists since 1995) moved into our senior, 55+ building, we were denied permission to use any of the surrounding land for gardening, either directly on the ground or in purchased raised beds. Our town was thinking and planning a public gardening area, where individuals could lease a very small plot to grow a family's vegetables, but that did not materialize.

For those of us living in these, or similar, circumstances, we must rely on purchasing food from groceries or smaller shops. In our area (rural and wooded Norther NJ) there are 1 or 2 health food stores, and only large chain groceries. None of us can know the food-raising practices of foods that are being shipped from distant areas in our country or from other countries. We therefore cannot escape the karmic burden of the modern farming industries. Many of us are on a very limited social security or welfare income that does not permit us the luxury of purchasing organically or sustainably grown produce, nor can we supervise the growing practices of others.

Therefore, we must be mindful when and where ever we consume food to be mindful of its provenance. I personally try to say mantra for the farmers, workers, animals and insects involved in the process of producing foodstuffs. And when I do not remember to do so prior to eating I try to pray after the fact.

:namaste:
cjdevries
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by cjdevries »

:anjali:
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh

"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche

"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Jesse »

Having been gardening for around a decade, I've found a few ways that work fairly well. There are a few bugs that won't stay away no matter what you do. Tomato hook worms. Little bastards can eat an entire plant overnight. Those and Melon Aphids (Super hard to get rid of, they lay eggs in the soil and keep coming back.)

You arrange your garden in such a way that you can surround your harvestable crops with deterrent plants. Some of the best ones are Marigolds, Citronella (One of the most powerful ones), Lemongrass, Green Onion Plants, Thyme, Lavender, etc.

Some plants repel insects with the scents they give off, and some of them produce sap that is toxic to insects, so they simply stay away.

Then there are other types of plants which draw insects, you need a bit of knowledge to use these. They are used in combination with the above plants. Some types of plants will attract bug eating insects such as wasps, certain flies, ladybugs, etc. One really nice one is the Butterfly Plant/Tree, it's a pretty small plant which attracts Butterflies, Lady Bugs, and Hummingbirds.

You can also put bird feeders near your garden, some days you put just enough seed in them to draw the birds -- once the food runs out they will notice the bugs in your garden, and snack on them.

All these things together will help, and you aren't actually killing anything. You are just building your garden to take advantage of natural predator prey relationships already happening in nature.

Good bug attracting plants:
https://www.permaculturenews.org/2014/1 ... l-insects/

Bad bug repelling plants:
https://www.masterclass.com/articles/ga ... epel-pests
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Kim O'Hara
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Re: Farmer develops method to get rid of bugs harmlessly

Post by Kim O'Hara »

:good:

What's a "Butterfly Plant" to you? Do you have a botanical name for it?
To us it's a Bauhinia, and I've never known it to be special in any way.

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Kim
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