About killing or dying. My concern about Buddhism

A forum for discussion of Buddhist ethics.
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BasedAlphaMale
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:23 am

About killing or dying. My concern about Buddhism

Post by BasedAlphaMale »

Salutations from a non Buddhist from Brazil.

Once I was in a Buddhist forum, and a member told that Buddha told that killing always generates bad karmas; that if you kill, for example, you will be killed 500 afterwards. The members of that Buddhist forum also appeared to think that, if someone is killed, it is because he killed someone in the past. But, if it is that way, then what would be the reasons that the first person killed in the world was killed? How "free will" comes into place in that story.

My problem with Buddhism is that it lacks judgements of value. It is comprehensible that killing is a crass thing and one should entangle oneself life to something more sensible, but I think there are times in which if you are not a destructive person, you will become a punching bag. For example, when someone is pointing a gun at you, when someone is pretending to enslave you, when someone is trying to inject you a substance that will harm your spiritual and physical integrity, and so on...

And it does not end there: If one is not aware of the remote threats of someone harming the person, he may become a victim of others, so one may have to adopt a predatory behavior so to not become a punching bag. For example, when a country is planning to invade another country so to enslave the population, so a leader has to think about whether he has to bomb all the soldiers of that country or not.

Does Buddhism considerate the thing of action-reaction in such occasions, like for example, you point me a gun, I shoot you. Shooting you was a reaction. Thus, I won't pay anything karmically for killing you. (??)

Last question:

If someone is supposed to be killed, is there is a way of avoiding it, like making one to pay his past karma in divided doses?

Thanks.
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PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9454
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: About killing or dying. My concern about Buddhism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

BasedAlphaMale wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:37 am Salutations from a non Buddhist from Brazil.

Once I was in a Buddhist forum, and a member told that Buddha told that killing always generates bad karmas; that if you kill, for example, you will be killed 500 afterwards. The members of that Buddhist forum also appeared to think that, if someone is killed, it is because he killed someone in the past. But, if it is that way, then what would be the reasons that the first person killed in the world was killed? How "free will" comes into place in that story.

My problem with Buddhism is that it lacks judgements of value. It is comprehensible that killing is a crass thing and one should entangle oneself life to something more sensible, but I think there are times in which if you are not a destructive person, you will become a punching bag. For example, when someone is pointing a gun at you, when someone is pretending to enslave you, when someone is trying to inject you a substance that will harm your spiritual and physical integrity, and so on...

And it does not end there: If one is not aware of the remote threats of someone harming the person, he may become a victim of others, so one may have to adopt a predatory behavior so to not become a punching bag. For example, when a country is planning to invade another country so to enslave the population, so a leader has to think about whether he has to bomb all the soldiers of that country or not.

Does Buddhism considerate the thing of action-reaction in such occasions, like for example, you point me a gun, I shoot you. Shooting you was a reaction. Thus, I won't pay anything karmically for killing you. (??)

Last question:

If someone is supposed to be killed, is there is a way of avoiding it, like making one to pay his past karma in divided doses?

Thanks.
All good questions,
and all based on misinformation.
Actually, “Buddhist morality” is very flexible compared with religions that hold to absolute sins.

For example, killing:
Buddhism doesn’t say killing is a sin.
Buddhism says to avoid killing.
There is a difference. Can you see it?
The point of the Buddhist path is to free oneself and others from suffering. If you cause suffering, and you have any conscience whatsoever, you will also suffer. You can see this with PTSD, in soldiers who return from battle. Even though they are told to go kill people, even though it is supposed to be for a good reason, they suffer too. But where does this suffering come from? It comes from one’s own mind. That’s where karma ripens. It’s not some judgement machine. You can kill a person in a second. You may suffer from killing that person for years.

So, buddhism says to avoid killing.
If you can avoid all killing and all connection to killing, wonderful. But for most people, impossible.
So, try to kill as little as you can. If there is a spider in your house, try to put it outside rather than smashing it.
If you cannot avoid killing something, try to do it quickly. Don’t torture.

There is a story about the Buddha in a previous life who was with a group of people on a boat. He knew that one person on the boat was going to kill all the other people, so to save them, and to save that person from committing so much harm, he killed that person.

Of course, we step on tiny things all the time. Our immune systems kill bacteria all the time. Even with free will, there are things we cannot avoid.
So, the other thing about “harmful actions” of body, speech and mind, is intention.
What really constitutes intention is,
There has to be the desire to do harm,
There has to be the action of doing harm,
There has to be a good feeling about having harmed, and
There has to be the hope of harming again.

Buddhism also does not say you should be a doormat or let others abuse you or harm you.
This is not only for your sake, but also for the sake of the person trying to harm you. It does the other person no good to go around hurting others. So, you avoid harming, and also avoid being harmed by another person, for their sake too.
That’s compassion.

I think Buddhism is more in tune with your way of thinking, and that the people on the other forum gave you bad information.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
BasedAlphaMale
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:23 am

Re: About killing or dying. My concern about Buddhism

Post by BasedAlphaMale »

Sounds reasonable. The person in the forum (was actually a Telegram channel) told that if I kill someone because the person is evil it does not make me less evil than him.
The notion the person passed is that for one to kill another, one needs to have a grasp of the "full picture" of the situation, because killing someone may appear good, when in reality it is not. Another person told there is no such thing as "big picture".

It is reasonable what you said about intentions and the example of the soldier, but maybe there are more objective things behind it isn't it?

For example, it seems that in Hinduism there are major paths, or sins, in which if crossed one will go to Hell, like killing a noble person. And that is reasonable, because when you kill someone you cannot take the person's life back even if you repent yourself, you know...

Could you please talk about it?

Thanks.
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PadmaVonSamba
Posts: 9454
Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am

Re: About killing or dying. My concern about Buddhism

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

BasedAlphaMale wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 11:19 pm For example, it seems that in Hinduism there are major paths, or sins, in which if crossed one will go to Hell, like killing a noble person. And that is reasonable, because when you kill someone you cannot take the person's life back even if you repent yourself, you know...
Could you please talk about it?
I don’t know about how the Hindus do things.
In Buddhism, we need to look at things in terms of interconnectedness. Killing a monk or other so-called “holy person” is serious business because it cuts off the source of liberation for countless other beings. How many people could that monk have helped? —because that’s what they have devoted their life to. Swatting a mosquito is still a negative act, and, I don’t know ..,perhaps one should think, “yeah, maybe I will pay for this, karmically, but it may stop the spread of disease, this mosquito won’t parent 100,000 other mosquitoes” or something like that. Maybe there are situations where an aspiring Bodhisattva is willing to risk negative consequences to oneself.

An action itself is empty of inherent good/bad value. You should unplug a toaster after you take the toast out, as a fire safety precaution. But if you unplug your refrigerator after taking food out of it, everything inside will spoil. So, actions also sort of have to be weighed according to the repercussions, as well as one’s intentions.

I personally don’t put too much stock in literal interpretations of statements such as “you will spend this many lifetimes” in some or other Buddhist hell. I think these statements are meant to instill a sense of gravity to the situation.

In one sense (not in every situation) there are “moral maybes” in Buddhism. It’s flexible to some extent. At the same time, one needs to be careful not to take the attitude that “yes, this is what the teachings say, but they don’t apply here!” —which is the hypocrisy we see in followers of religions whose tenets regarding right and wrong are absolute:
“Thou shalt not kill” on Sunday, and “God bless our military” on Monday.

There are sometimes very fine lines to cross, which is why developing wisdom is important.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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