A Master in Zen

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Ivan A
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A Master in Zen

Post by Ivan A »

If Zen Buddhism is actually interaction and transmission through a teacher/master (in the country where I live there are none at all, and I have no opportunity to go abroad), then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby, and Zen, like any spiritual practice in general, does not exclude the mistakes of a beginner and their correction by an experienced mentor? Zen books can only remotely help a practitioner. And one mistake can lead very far. That is, the practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 am If Zen Buddhism is actually interaction and transmission through a teacher/master (in the country where I live there are none at all, and I have no opportunity to go abroad), then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby, and Zen, like any spiritual practice in general, does not exclude the mistakes of a beginner and their correction by an experienced mentor? Zen books can only remotely help a practitioner. And one mistake can lead very far. That is, the practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
There is always benefit in studying and practicing Buddhist teachings. But you make a valid point. If one is thirsty, reading about water doesn’t help. One has to go to the water.

But there is another way of looking at this. Of the thousands of people who practice Zen, how many ‘inherit the bowl and robe’ from the teacher?
Very few.
How many people sit for years and struggle with koans and never attain any realization?
Many.

Looking at it from that angle, one can assume either of two things:

1. Zen is not a very good method, it’s like a big farm that only produces one or two potatoes

OR

2. Zen is a very good method, and there is a lot of realization that one can develop through Zen practice, even if one never has kensho, or satori, or never receives the transmission from the teacher, which is why thousands of people practice it.

Something else to keep in mind is that although you don’t have contact with a Zen master today, you might in the future. For every person who ever had a face-to-face teacher, they began by not having a face-to-face teacher.
Later, they met their teacher.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
reiun
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by reiun »

Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 am If Zen Buddhism is actually interaction and transmission through a teacher/master (in the country where I live there are none at all, and I have no opportunity to go abroad), then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby, and Zen, like any spiritual practice in general, does not exclude the mistakes of a beginner and their correction by an experienced mentor? Zen books can only remotely help a practitioner. And one mistake can lead very far. That is, the practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
Dai Bosatsu Zendo in the U.S. is one of several centers offering online instruction and participation:

https://zenstudies.org/zss-digital-meetings/

You can do your due diligence and perhaps find one best suited for the practice you would like to cultivate.

Good luck!
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Astus
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Astus »

Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 amthe practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
Not at all. If you have the intention to awakening (bodhicitta), that already puts you on the path to buddhahood, and the cultivation of the six paramitas is what any Mahayana follower does, no matter the tradition. Even if you eventually want to study under a Zen teacher, there is a lot you can do before, and it will also greatly benefit your Zen practice.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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KeithA
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Re: A Master in Zen

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Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 am If Zen Buddhism is actually interaction and transmission through a teacher/master (in the country where I live there are none at all, and I have no opportunity to go abroad), then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby, and Zen, like any spiritual practice in general, does not exclude the mistakes of a beginner and their correction by an experienced mentor? Zen books can only remotely help a practitioner. And one mistake can lead very far. That is, the practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
Hi Ivan,

There are many, many opportunities to connect with a teacher online. It's not the ideal, but I have found it workable.

You are correct. Zen practice requires a teacher. There's no way away around that. But, as Astus said, there is never not a reason to take up practice. If you practice earnestly, the teacher will appear. Keep searching.

If you are interested, the tradition I practice with has an online sangha here.

Good luck and thanks for practicing,
Keith
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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seeker242
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by seeker242 »

Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 am then is there any point in practicing it at all
Yes, there's always a benefit in practicing regardless of teacher or no teacher. Teacher is better of course but no teacher is not just nothing. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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KeithA
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by KeithA »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:58 am
...

But there is another way of looking at this. Of the thousands of people who practice Zen, how many ‘inherit the bowl and robe’ from the teacher?
Very few.
How many people sit for years and struggle with koans and never attain any realization?
Many.

Looking at it from that angle, one can assume either of two things:

1. Zen is not a very good method, it’s like a big farm that only produces one or two potatoes

OR

2. Zen is a very good method, and there is a lot of realization that one can develop through Zen practice, even if one never has kensho, or satori, or never receives the transmission from the teacher, which is why thousands of people practice it.

...
Off topic, but this is a curious statement. It can be said about literally almost every religion in the world. Many people practice, some benefit, some don't.

:shrug:
When walking, standing, sitting, lying down, speaking,
being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
One mind is infinite kalpas.

New Haven Zen Center
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

KeithA wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 2:39 pmOff topic, but this is a curious statement. It can be said about literally almost every religion in the world. Many people practice, some benefit, some don't.
My reply is specific to this question:
“…then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby…”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Matylda
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Matylda »

Ivan A wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 9:53 am If Zen Buddhism is actually interaction and transmission through a teacher/master (in the country where I live there are none at all, and I have no opportunity to go abroad), then is there any point in practicing it at all if there is no living teacher nearby, and Zen, like any spiritual practice in general, does not exclude the mistakes of a beginner and their correction by an experienced mentor? Zen books can only remotely help a practitioner. And one mistake can lead very far. That is, the practice of Buddhism as such is impossible without a teacher?
Dosho Port Roshi offers online help, and since you have a computer, you do not have to worry about your practice. https://vineobstacleszen.com/
Meido Roshi also gives teachings and probably instructions online and could advice you. https://www.inner-craft.com/

You do not have to worry, that there is no teacher in your country.
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Matt J
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Matt J »

There was a saying that I cannot locate that says something like:

Practicing Zen, 1 may realize and 9 will go astray.
Practicing Pure Land, 10 in 10 will go to Amida's pureland.
Practicing Zen and Pure Land, one becomes a dharma tiger.
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 10:58 am But there is another way of looking at this. Of the thousands of people who practice Zen, how many ‘inherit the bowl and robe’ from the teacher?
Very few.
How many people sit for years and struggle with koans and never attain any realization?
Many.
"The world is made of stories, not atoms."
--- Muriel Rukeyser
Meido
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Meido »

Zen is no different than any other Buddhist tradition in terms of ease or difficulty, or number of people who attain deeply:

It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s True Nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly (according to this understanding), in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddha and patriarchs become mere empty words, rather than the living Dharma. - Torei


The majority of people that call themselves practitioners will not really follow this advice, it seems, regardless of what tradition they follow, or how near they live to a teacher.

Or this advice:

The first requirement for trainees is to give up all benefit for "I." - Torei

As Bodhidharma said, many people know the way, but few follow it.

Regarding a teacher, yes it is necessary. But until you are able to connect with one, as mentioned by folks above there are many things one can do.

One could start, as Torei (again) advises, by reciting and contemplating the four vows, because (he says) by doing so one is bound to give rise to great compassion as foundation of the path.

BTW it is fine to connect with a teacher from a distance. At some point you'll have to meet in person. But it need not be often. Whatever one's conditions seem to be, there's no need to view them as obstacles. Just reach out and make connections. In other words, stop worrying about it, and jump in however you can.

Dosho was mentioned above as an option. He is a good one, and very active guiding people online.
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Ivan A
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Ivan A »

My kind friends! I'm very grateful to all of you for your advice, help, and support! Right now I feel the power of the Sangha and the distance is not a hindrance! I bow low to you, kind friends!!!
reiun
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by reiun »

I have been reading The Discourse on The Inexhaustible Lamp of the Zen School, by Zen Master Torei Enji, translated by Yoko Okuda, for a while now, and really appreciate the quotes you provided. Read it through, just Torei's part, and now tackling it with Daibi's comments.
Meido wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:27 pm It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s True Nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly (according to this understanding), in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddha and patriarchs become mere empty words, rather than the living Dharma. - Torei
(Torei IV)

Since it is "uncommonly difficult" advice to follow all the time, i.e., "in motion and at rest", should it be regarded only, or realistically, as aspirational? This is considered Advanced Practice, yes? And I would guess it would be a rare actualization.
Meido wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:27 pm The majority of people that call themselves practitioners will not really follow this advice, it seems, regardless of what tradition they follow, or how near they live to a teacher.

Or this advice:

The first requirement for trainees is to give up all benefit for "I." - Torei
(Torei 130).
Just prior to this quote, Torei 129: Thus followers of the Buddha's Way first need to cast off the sense of "I" and not cling to any advantage of their own.

Such a great turn-of-phrase, "sense of I", and so different from "I".

What would be that true "advantage"?
Meido wrote: Sat Aug 28, 2021 5:27 pm One could start, as Torei (again) advises, by reciting and contemplating the four vows, because (he says) by doing so one is bound to give rise to great compassion as foundation of the path.
Such good teaching. I have always remembered this translation by Kapleau at Rochester Zen Center:

The Four Bodhisattvic Vows
All beings, without number,
I vow to liberate.
Endless blind passions
I vow to uproot.
Dharma gates, beyond measure,
I vow to penetrate.
The Great Way of Buddha
I vow to attain.


To answer my own question above, I agree that "The majority of people that call themselves practitioners will not really follow this advice". But that doesn't mean that they won't try to.
Sherap Nyima
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by Sherap Nyima »

Spend a week or so alone in the mountains or desert or jungle,
that's a great teacher.
reiun
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Re: A Master in Zen

Post by reiun »

Sherap Nyima wrote: Sun Aug 29, 2021 8:36 pm Spend a week or so alone in the mountains or desert or jungle,
that's a great teacher.
We, as students, can learn much from nature.

A teacher, though, may not choose this luxury. To stay and teach students who have been taught but have not yet fully grasped Torei's advice, this is true compassion and resolve.
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