An Interpretation of: ‘To Turn Around’

[JimTempleman]

A Follow-On Observation (Unification): I couldn’t help notice that in the example I just gave above, although doubt wore away at Tempu Nakamura conscious efforts, it wasn’t until he took a break from his practice that the breakthrough occurred:

from Stephen Earle (2017) Heaven's Wind: The Life and Teachings of Nakamura Tempu:
"Still later, Nakamura was getting tired of the whole affair and took a break from sitting and layed back looking at the clouds in the sky. Then he had 'the odd sensation that he is being sucked into the sky’s emptiness.' …."

It’s quite common for a breakthrough to come at the very moment of giving up, or surrendering one’s effort: One transitions from the concentrated efforts of the guests to the effortless illumination of the host.

Might the same thing have happened under the Bodhi tree? Buddha astutely realized that he had released the desire behind the effort. When the host released the desire, dukkha came to an end. Cessation of the guest’s activity gave rise to The Great Awakening.

If this is true, then it shares the crucial step of ‘releasing desire’ with the mothod of “Undriven-Mind: letting go of the next thought” I mentioned above. So, the 3rd Noble Truth (The Truth of Cessation) might be the common denominator in all breakthroughs that overcome the discriminating-mind to realize the host.

[Matt J]

Warning, the following post will be midly controversial towards the end, so brace yourself.

How do you take this part of the Dogen quote:

Therefore we should cease the intellectual work of studying sayings and chasing words. We should learn the backward step of turning light and reflecting. Body and mind will naturally fall away, and the original features will manifest themselves before us.

[JimTempleman]

Warning, the following post will be midly controversial towards the end, so brace yourself.

How do you take this part of the Dogen quote:

Therefore we should cease the intellectual work of studying sayings and chasing words. We should learn the backward step of turning light and reflecting. Body and mind will naturally fall away, and the original features will manifest themselves before us.

I take it to mean that when you practice Zazen/Silent-Illumination you focus on the method! And as you gain more calmness & insight, you bring it with you into your daily life. Dogen was very well read & a prolific writer. A lot of people spend a lot of time studying his sayings and chasing after his words. And I suspect he would have approved of their doing so.

[JimTempleman]

Oh, I just noticed your signature quotation:

"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

So I now see where you’re coming from! Here’s my answer:

“The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation.”
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Don’t you see how close that is to saying:
- - “The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your desires.”

“All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Yes. "Just as it is," once you: “let go of all your expectations about meditation.”

“You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Yes, “while observing your mind” you don’t need to shift your awareness, its already where it needs to be. It’s already in the host. That's where you watch thoughts arise and fall away; that's where you can “let go of all your expectations about meditation.”

As Dongshan Liangjie (807–869) would put it:

“It’s the beginning of autumn, the end of summer, and you brethren will go, some to the east, some west; you must go where there’s not an inch of grass for ten thousand miles.”

[JimTempleman]

I’m taking the following quote from another (older, locked) thread entitled ‘Strangeness while turning off toughts’ (also under < Meditation):
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 60#p293760
Because it relates directly to this thread (An Interpretation of: ‘To Turn Around’).

Regarding the “stopping of thoughts”:

I like the Japanese zen description of this. They use the terms Shiryo, Fushiryo and Hishiryo.

Shiryo (thinking)
Fushiryo (not thinking)
Hishiryo (beyond thinking)

Teachers say the practice is not a matter of thinking (shiryo) or of shutting out thought (fushiryo) but of being before, or beyond, thinking (hishiryo).

Masters don't teach students to "switch off" thoughts because that would be the wrong practice of "fushiryo", rather than the correct practice of "hishiryo". I'm not a Japanese zen practicioner, but I've always found those 3 descriptions helpful. Fri Jul 24, 2015 7:43 am

So:
Awareness in the Guest == Shiryo (thinking)
Absence of Awareness == Fushiryo (not thinking)
Awareness in the Host == Hishiryo (beyond thinking)

Now going back to Dogen’s Fukan zazen gi, but this time the Tenpuku version:
from Dogen (2007) Shōbōgenzō: The True Dharma-Eye Treasury. Translated by Gudo Wafu Nishijima and Chodo Cross (2007) Appendix II Fukanzazengi (Universal Guide to the Standard Method of Zazen) Volume I. p. 364:

When the physical posture is already settled, make one complete exhalation and sway left and right. Sitting immovably in the mountain-still state, “Think about this concrete state beyond thinking.” “How can the state beyond thinking be thought about?” “It is different from thinking.” This is just the pivot of zazen.

[Matt J]

I would suggest that your proposed Hishiryo is just another form of Shiryo.

So:
Awareness in the Guest == Shiryo (thinking)
Absence of Awareness == Fushiryo (not thinking)
Awareness in the Host == Hishiryo (beyond thinking)

[JimTempleman]

I would suggest that your proposed Hishiryo is just another form of Shiryo.

So:
Awareness in the Guest == Shiryo (thinking)
Absence of Awareness == Fushiryo (not thinking)
Awareness in the Host == Hishiryo (beyond thinking)

Why would you consider: ‘Awareness in the Host’ (Hishiryo, beyond thinking) to be just another form of ‘Awareness in the Guest’ (Shiryo, thinking)?

Do you equate any form of ‘Awareness’ with just ‘thinking’?
Even “observing your mind” from outside of the thoughts themselves (as the host attends to the guests)?
Is awareness of the sky (host) the same as awareness of the clouds (guests)?

I included the reference to Dogen’s Tenpuku version of Fukan zazen gi to link it back to Dogen’s Koroku version of the Fukan zazen gi (mentioned in the original post) in order to show how the expression ‘beyond thinking’ subsumed the method of being aware of one’s thoughts come & go until you become “forgetful of objects.” In other words, ‘beyond thinking’ subsumed: watching one’s thoughts arise & fall away, which is synonomous with having one’s ‘Awareness in the Host’.

Therefore (in terms of Dogen’s progression):
beyond thinking == Awareness in the Host != thinking == Awareness in the Guest

[KeithA]

I have to admit the line: “first entering one’s awareness into “the thing we call a ‘self’.” Isn’t a bullseye for me. I will have to give it some thought.

Yes, I have to admit I was reaching to connect with your statement:

to me “turning around” has always meant searching for the thing we call a “self”.

I’m much more interested to know if you uncover a problem with my saying:

to shift one’s awareness from the guest to the host

Because that comes closer to how the experience was perceived.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

Once again, I appreciate this topic very much. There was some interesting discussion about Guest/Host in this topic.

If the "guest" is the dust, or the delusive thinking, and the "host" is that which doesn't change (Buddha Nature, Original Mind, Primary Point, etc.), then shifting awareness from guest to host would seem to be the direction of our practice. So, I don't uncover a problem at all.

I don't take part in these heavily theoretical discussions very often, because I tend to get lost. So, if i missed something here, my apologies.

_/|\_
Keith

[KeithA]

I have to admit the line: “first entering one’s awareness into “the thing we call a ‘self’.” Isn’t a bullseye for me. I will have to give it some thought.

Yes, I have to admit I was reaching to connect with your statement:

to me “turning around” has always meant searching for the thing we call a “self”.

I’m much more interested to know if you uncover a problem with my saying:

to shift one’s awareness from the guest to the host

Because that comes closer to how the experience was perceived.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated!

Once again, I appreciate this topic very much. There was some interesting discussion about Guest/Host in this topic.

If the "guest" is the dust, or the delusive thinking, and the "host" is that which doesn't change (Buddha Nature, Original Mind, Primary Point, etc.), then shifting awareness from guest to host would seem to be the direction of our practice. So, I don't uncover a problem at all.

I don't take part in these heavily theoretical discussions very often, because I tend to get lost. So, if i missed something here, my apologies.

_/|\_
Keith

One more thing to add. In considering this, the thought occurred to me that the host cannot exist without the guest, and the guest cannot exist without the host. So, we come back to transcending both host and guest. But, the literature here and in the topic I linked to seem to point to something different. I guess I am a stuck. Perhaps entering awareness to the host is a first step, and then the host is dropped.

In this true world of Emptiness
both self and other are no more.


To enter this true empty world,
immediately affirm "not-two."


In this "not-two" all is the same,
with nothing separate or outside.


The wise in all times and places
awaken to this primal truth.

Hsin Hsin Ming (from here)

_/|\_

[jimmi]

Perhaps entering awareness to the host is a first step, and then the host is dropped.

Wait a minute! Why enter awareness to the host only to drop it? Having dropped it is the dropper not back to square one, the state in play before the entering?

[KeithA]

Perhaps entering awareness to the host is a first step, and then the host is dropped.

Wait a minute! Why enter awareness to the host only to drop it? Having dropped it is the dropper not back to square one, the state in play before the entering?

There is an old zen teaching that goes something like:

First, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers

Then, mountains are rivers, rivers are mountains

Finally, mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers

We are experiencing a strong tropical storm where I live. So, we cancelled in person practice, but still held zoom practice. Just me and my teacher showed up. We sat for a half hour, while rain and wind was pelting the windows outside. It was quite wonderful, actually.

Anyway, we had a chance to talk a bit about the guest/host, do some kong an practice, and talk life in general. It was an interesting conversation, and he helped bring the teaching into focus for me. Obviously, it’s an expedient teaching, but there is way to bring it alive, which is what I think the op is getting at.

_/|\_

[JimTempleman]

If the "guest" is the dust, or the delusive thinking, and the "host" is that which doesn't change (Buddha Nature, Original Mind, Primary Point, etc.), then shifting awareness from guest to host would seem to be the direction of our practice. So, I don't uncover a problem at all.

Yes, the Guest is the dust, the delusive thinking.
And the Host is the unmoving empty space though which the dust moves. (Aka: Buddha Nature, Original Mind, Primary Point, etc.)

Here’s another reference from Chan Master Xu Yun (Empty Cloud)
from Lu K'uan Yii [Charles Luk] (1960) Ch'an and Zen Teaching. Part I: Master Hsu Yuns Discourses and Dharma Words. p. 36

“In the Surangama assembly, Arya Ajnatakaundinya … said: … 'My deduction is that the one who does not stay is the guest and the one who does stay is the host. Therefore, a thing is foreign when it does not stay. Again in a clear sky, when the sun rises and sunlight enters (the house) through an opening, the dust is seen moving in the ray of light whereas the empty space is unmoving. Therefore, that which is still is voidness and that which moves is dust.'

Foreign dust illustrates false thinking, and voidness illustrates self-nature, that is the permanent host who does not follow the guest in the latter's coming and going. This serves to illustrate the eternal (unmoving) self-nature which does not follow false thinking in its sudden rise and fall.”

My main point is that if you look at Master Hongzh'si Silent Illumination or Dogen Zenji’s Zazen in these terms, it makes it easier to see what’s taking place. It helps clarify the kind of learning that’s going on as one practices paying attention to one’s thoughts arise & fall away, sitting regularly long enough to become “forgetful of objects” and then “naturally become unified.”

One more thing to add. In considering this, the thought occurred to me that the host cannot exist without the guest, and the guest cannot exist without the host. So, we come back to transcending both host and guest. But, the literature here and in the topic I linked to seem to point to something different. I guess I am a stuck. Perhaps entering awareness to the host is a first step, and then the host is dropped.

Wait a minute! Why enter awareness to the host only to drop it? Having dropped it is the dropper not back to square one, the state in play before the entering?

Excellent points! Both the host & guest are always present, and rely on each other to function and grow (learn). It’s just that one’s awareness can shift from one to the other. Since the host is (as you noted) Buddha Nature it’s there from the beginning. However, I don’t see how we are going to transcend or drop the host (Buddha Nature)!

The practice I describe in this post is just about getting a foothold in the host: just enough to be aware of watching one’s thoughts rise & fall. What happened next is described in my earlier post entitled: ‘Undriven-Mind: letting go of the next thought’ (which is also under the Upāya < Meditation forum). Once awareness has a foothold in the host it can shut down the guests by fading away it’s desire for having the next thought. ('Eliminating desire to eliminate dukkha' is the Truth of Cessation, aka the Thrird Noble Truth.) Shutting down the guest is experienced as the samadhi of Silent Illumination, in which thoughts cease, but perception remains clear. The samadhi only lasts so long but it produces a lasting effect. I’m not sure if it expands your awareness in the host (beyond the foothold), or it fuses the host together with the guest.

It’s a good idea to think of people’s normal way of thinking as having the guests in the foreground (of awareness) and the host in the background. Both the foreground & background are both always there. When awareness shifts to the host it becomes the foreground and the guests are in the background. This is known as a “figure-ground reversal” a bit like the white silhouette of a vase against a black background that reverses into two faces looking at each other, if you stare at it long enough.

In this true world of Emptiness
both self and other are no more.

In the samadhi of Silent Illumination there are no thoughts, so “self and other are no more.”

To enter this true empty world,
immediately affirm "not-two."

“Not-two” is simply the host & guest working together as one.
There are still two but function as one.

In this "not-two" all is the same,
with nothing separate or outside.

The guest is also called the discriminating mind. The host should be called the unifying mind, because (according to the Sutra of Complete Enlightenment) awareness [in the host] is like empty space. It is impartial and equal, and ever unmoving. “All is the same” means equal.

[master of puppets]

I put it in this way ; there is no past and the future is today.

[JimTempleman]

I put it in this way ; there is no past and the future is today.

I see ‘the future is now’ as closer to the Third Noble Truth:
Ending one’s craving (for things to come) puts an end to suffering (today).

It could also be considered living mindfully in the moment, but that too is a way of putting an end to craving.

I can’t help but think of the Bible verse: "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" from the Sermon on the Mount. It means that we should not worry about the future, since each day contains an ample burden of evils and suffering. I never thought of this verse as the Third Noble Truth before, but I do now.
–Thanks.

I also see that saying ‘the future is now’ turns time around, in a sense. But I’m not sure where that takes us, beyond Third Noble Truth.

[master of puppets]

I put it in this way ; there is no past and the future is today.

I see ‘the future is now’ as closer to the Third Noble Truth:
Ending one’s craving (for things to come) puts an end to suffering (today).

It could also be considered living mindfully in the moment, but that too is a way of putting an end to craving.

I can’t help but think of the Bible verse: "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof" from the Sermon on the Mount. It means that we should not worry about the future, since each day contains an ample burden of evils and suffering. I never thought of this verse as the Third Noble Truth before, but I do now.
–Thanks.

I also see that saying ‘the future is now’ turns time around, in a sense. But I’m not sure where that takes us, beyond Third Noble Truth.

I think the issue or the case is clear, as "no-thought".

There is no higher truth than this.

[JimTempleman]

I think the issue or the case is clear, as "no-thought".

There is no higher truth than this.

If you can get to no-thought through “there is no past and the future is today” that’s great!

The Third Noble Truth is also called the Truth of Cessation & I stongly suspect it originally included to the cessation-of-thought (aka suffering) which is no-thought.
And, yes “There is no higher truth than this.”

[master of puppets]

I think the issue or the case is clear, as "no-thought".

There is no higher truth than this.

If you can get to no-thought through “there is no past and the future is today” that’s great!

The Third Noble Truth is also called the Truth of Cessation & I stongly suspect it originally included to the cessation-of-thought (aka suffering) which is no-thought.
And, yes “There is no higher truth than this.”

It is clear,

made by zazen.

[yinyangkoi]

Turning around means to drop thinking, the realm before thinking. I didn't read the thread