Chariot Example in Chandrakirti

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Konchog1
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Re: Chariot Example in Chandrakirti

Post by Konchog1 »

Subcontrary wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:35 pm I feel as if there are a number of steps between "the chariot depends on its parts," which I freely concede, and "the chariot doesn't exist," which I have massive difficulty conceding. Without analysis it seems to me perfectly consistent and intuitive that a thing can both depend on its parts and also exist.

If I were to tell Chandrakirti that I concede that a chariot depends on its parts, what might his line of reasoning be from that place, to the conclusion that the chariot doesn't ultimately exist at all?

Thank you for any light you can shine on this topic!
Define exist.
“When reasoning searches to whether the chariot intrinsically exists, it is not found in any of the seven ways. This is the case in terms of both of the two truths. But when reason fails to find it those seven ways, does this refute the chariot? How could it? Reasoning that analyses whether things intrinsically exist does not establish the assertion of the chariot; rather, leaving reasoned analysis aside, it is established by a mere unimpaired, ordinary, conventional—i.e., worldly—consciousness. Therefore, the way a chariot is posited is that it is established as existing imputedly; it is imputed in dependence upon its parts.”
-The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment eng v03 pg. 283 tib pg. 725
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-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
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muni
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Re: Chariot Example in Chandrakirti

Post by muni »

As long as there is identification with consciousness ( an inherently self), what is mostly without aware of that, there will be solid phenomena. And even the important examination that these only depends upon their parts, can possible not be enough to stop our grasping/clinging to our experience as phenomena. Conventional and absolute are not separated "natures".

Therefore Buddha looked into his mind to come to know the dependence on "his" consciousness.

I for example should climb in a tree out of fear for a dangerous dog, while you could pass this dog and surprised look at me: oh well, what she is doing?! :rolleye:

Perhaps it helps to examine no things do exists on themselves, are not permanently.
Any experience of consciousness—from the most mundane to the most elevated—has a certain coherence and, at the same time, a high degree of privacy, which means that it always exists from a particular point of view. The experience of consciousness is entirely subjective. The paradox, however, is that despite the indubitable reality of our subjectivity and thousands of years of philosophical examination, there is little consensus on what consciousness is.
And perhaps Chandrakirti seven fold reasoning.
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Aemilius
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Re: Chariot Example in Chandrakirti

Post by Aemilius »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:48 am
Subcontrary wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:19 amis there some difference I haven't detected between saying "there is no such thing as rabbits" and "rabbits are unreal?"
There are such things as rabbits, which is why you can say they are unreal. If there were no such thing as rabbits, what would could be described as unreal?
Usually rabbit in a dream is called unreal. It is unreal in comparison with a waking state perception of a certain kind of animal, which corresponds to the image "rabbit" in one's storehouse consciousness. Thus one is able to identify that object/animal as "rabbit". The object is real in comparison with unreal i.e. imaginary rabbits or dream rabbits. Words and language serve a function, they communicate meanings.

"Rabbit" is real in the sense that based on it you can acquire merit or demerit, i.e. by saving life or destroying life. Thus rabbit becomes, or it can become, a basis for the Noble Path.

"Rabbit" is human perception endowed with human values and human attitudes.Thus it is not an absolute or indepedent truth.
Last edited by Aemilius on Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
svaha
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Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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