Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Discuss the application of the Dharma to situations of social, political, environmental and economic suffering and injustice.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by SilenceMonkey »

All of that suffering and heart crushing sympathy... we take it as motivation for practice.

You could open up a charity. See what people need and how to deliver it to them, out of the goodness of your heart. Or see what other people are doing to help the beggars and their children. Worldly Problems often require worldly solutions.

But every so often, there might be lamas or teachers from other traditions who would go to the people and make Dharma connections. It may be a lot to take on, because to help them would mean to take on their suffering, which is often a lot. To really help them sort through their problems is a huge task. Are we really capable of pulling a family out of poverty? How about everyone we meet, for that matter? Maybe we'd have to spend months or years of our lives devoted to this... And then we'd somehow be responsible for them.

Some people are so self-sacrificing that they'd be willing to give their lives for the sake of all these people they meet on the street. But maybe few have the means to be really effective.

As for Dharma, I think the idea is that once you've made connection with people, they might open up to the idea of Dharma. You might be able to teach some Dharma, and a few people may even be receptive to it... I also wonder if prayers and mantras alone have the power to pull even one person out of abject poverty. Perhaps some practice could help people get control of their lives. Perhaps not.

Otherwise, maybe all we can do is give donations and pray for their future prosperity and to come into contact with the Three Jewels, taking it as a path.
Brunelleschi
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Brunelleschi »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:17 pm Could we say, then, that Buddhism is primarily focused (as are many if not most religions) on afterlife or future lives?
Anything that focuses on the happiness of this life, rather than the consequences in future lifes is not Dharma. This is explicitly stated by masters like Atisha.
One could also see the negative aspect of seeing suffering people and saying, "well, it's their karma" as a way of easing one's conscience or absolving one's responsibility to be socially conscious. I experienced that in India and Thailand where many expresed this attitude to me. Of course, Karma Is the teaching of Buddhism (and Hinduism), but naturally if we help a needy person, isn't that, too, a result of karmic causes?
A similar attitude about karma could be applied to a tyrant or evil ruler, or genocide, other injustices in the world, should one act? Speak up? Do something? Or take a more passive approach and see It as something we can do nothing about?
Buddhism is about being in reality. First of all, the people that you interacted with may not have been serious practitioners of Buddhism or Hinduism so their personal view is not necessarily a good representation of the Buddhist or Hindu view. A person may say a few prayers on Vesak (still good) and that's it, same as with followers of any religion. Secondly, they may not have had the resources available to help these people. If you can help people that's good. However, to bring large groups of people out of poverty you need enormous resources, something only available to a state or very large corporations.
For many, Karma could become a form of fatalism, and one could also see how a bad ruler or the wealthy could use it to justify their behavior and tell the poor and oppressed to just "accept their lot".
Encountering Dharma is certainly a result of Karma, as are the conditions that would facilitate the ability to práctice it.
No, Karma is not fatalism - it's the law of cause and effect. If you are new to some concepts in Buddhism you can use the search function and get many various threads on the subject. Karma is not the same as the folk idea of karma.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:17 pm Could we say, then, that Buddhism is primarily focused (as are many if not most religions) on afterlife or future lives?
One could also see the negative aspect of seeing suffering people and saying, "well, it's their karma" as a way of easing one's conscience or absolving one's responsibility to be socially conscious. I experienced that in India and Thailand where many expresed this attitude to me. Of course, Karma Is the teaching of Buddhism (and Hinduism), but naturally if we help a needy person, isn't that, too, a result of karmic causes?
A similar attitude about karma could be applied to a tyrant or evil ruler, or genocide, other injustices in the world, should one act? Speak up? Do something? Or take a more passive approach and see It as something we can do nothing about? For many, Karma could become a form of fatalism, and one could also see how a bad ruler or the wealthy could use it to justify their behavior and tell the poor and oppressed to just "accept their lot".
Encountering Dharma is certainly a result of Karma, as are the conditions that would facilitate the ability to práctice it.
Karma teachings in Buddhism and other Indian religions are different. In Buddhism, there is an emphasis on our ability to change our karma and our so-called "destiny." In Vedic religions, it seems a bit more fatalistic. (There is a great book about this called "Karma: What it is, What it isn't and Why it Matters" by Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.) I think these fatalistic attitudes of karma often lead ordinary people to make judgements that because someone is in bad circumstances they deserve it (in a moral sense). It's a nasty attitude underlying the caste system in India.

Many Buddhists teachers speak up against genocide and other injustices in the world. Some choose not to engage with these things, but you'll find many who do.
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Lotomístico
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Lotomístico »

Brunelleschi wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:54 am
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:17 pm Could we say, then, that Buddhism is primarily focused (as are many if not most religions) on afterlife or future lives?
Anything that focuses on the happiness of this life, rather than the consequences in future lifes is not Dharma. This is explicitly stated by masters like Atisha.
One could also see the negative aspect of seeing suffering people and saying, "well, it's their karma" as a way of easing one's conscience or absolving one's responsibility to be socially conscious. I experienced that in India and Thailand where many expresed this attitude to me. Of course, Karma Is the teaching of Buddhism (and Hinduism), but naturally if we help a needy person, isn't that, too, a result of karmic causes?
A similar attitude about karma could be applied to a tyrant or evil ruler, or genocide, other injustices in the world, should one act? Speak up? Do something? Or take a more passive approach and see It as something we can do nothing about?
Buddhism is about being in reality. First of all, the people that you interacted with may not have been serious practitioners of Buddhism or Hinduism so their personal view is not necessarily a good representation of the Buddhist or Hindu view. A person may say a few prayers on Vesak (still good) and that's it, same as with followers of any religion. Secondly, they may not have had the resources available to help these people. If you can help people that's good. However, to bring large groups of people out of poverty you need enormous resources, something only available to a state or very large corporations.
For many, Karma could become a form of fatalism, and one could also see how a bad ruler or the wealthy could use it to justify their behavior and tell the poor and oppressed to just "accept their lot".
Encountering Dharma is certainly a result of Karma, as are the conditions that would facilitate the ability to práctice it.
No, Karma is not fatalism - it's the law of cause and effect. If you are new to some concepts in Buddhism you can use the search function and get many various threads on the subject. Karma is not the same as the folk idea of karma.
No, I realize that Karma is not fatalism, just that some could misuse the term to justify fatalism or apathy. Or, as you mentioned, the folk or cultural meaning of the word.
Basically, then, there is nothing inherently in Dharma that could provide a means of solving human problems such as poverty and other issues facing the world, short of everyone having some form of Awakening experience that would eliminate underlying causes such as greed, for example. Just curious, though, why is focusing on consequences in future lives, but not alleviating suffering in this life, considered Dharma?
Many responses here mention government assistance to the needy, organizations, charities, corporations etc which while doing wonderful things provide no permanent end to the causes, and frankly don't seem to be able to feed many people living in hunger and without access to básic resources.
I will look up Karma in the glossary, but understanding such concepts is difficult for me, spent 20 years in Southeast Asia doing meditation (of the Theravada variety), tried to read books (but generally tried to focus on práctice, and many teachers discouraged reading and focusing on purely intelectual understanding) but just couldn't seem to get a grasp on even básic concepts. And made apparently little progress in meditation, which is why I'm looking into Mahayana teachings. Though I don't think I will ever have a deep, academic understanding of Buddhism or become advanced in my práctice, it feels beyond my abilities at this point, at least in this life.
One should become the master of one’s mind rather than let one’s mind master oneself.
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Lotomístico
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Lotomístico »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:56 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 10:17 pm Could we say, then, that Buddhism is primarily focused (as are many if not most religions) on afterlife or future lives?
One could also see the negative aspect of seeing suffering people and saying, "well, it's their karma" as a way of easing one's conscience or absolving one's responsibility to be socially conscious. I experienced that in India and Thailand where many expresed this attitude to me. Of course, Karma Is the teaching of Buddhism (and Hinduism), but naturally if we help a needy person, isn't that, too, a result of karmic causes?
A similar attitude about karma could be applied to a tyrant or evil ruler, or genocide, other injustices in the world, should one act? Speak up? Do something? Or take a more passive approach and see It as something we can do nothing about? For many, Karma could become a form of fatalism, and one could also see how a bad ruler or the wealthy could use it to justify their behavior and tell the poor and oppressed to just "accept their lot".
Encountering Dharma is certainly a result of Karma, as are the conditions that would facilitate the ability to práctice it.
Karma teachings in Buddhism and other Indian religions are different. In Buddhism, there is an emphasis on our ability to change our karma and our so-called "destiny." In Vedic religions, it seems a bit more fatalistic. (There is a great book about this called "Karma: What it is, What it isn't and Why it Matters" by Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche.) I think these fatalistic attitudes of karma often lead ordinary people to make judgements that because someone is in bad circumstances they deserve it (in a moral sense). It's a nasty attitude underlying the caste system in India.

Many Buddhists teachers speak up against genocide and other injustices in the world. Some choose not to engage with these things, but you'll find many who do.
Yes, as I understand there Is a difference between the Buddhist and Hindú concept of Karma (Jainism also has the concept of Karma, though I know nothing about the finer points of the differences).
Indeed, you mentioned changing Karma as a Buddhist understanding... would this be primarily for future existences, or can people change their conditions in this life? Though naturally one would have to encounter Dharma in the first place, have an inclination to práctice it(and the ability to do so, including having básic physical needs met), once again the result of Karma.
One should become the master of one’s mind rather than let one’s mind master oneself.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lotomístico wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:46 pm Basically, then, there is nothing inherently in Dharma that could provide a means of solving human problems such as poverty and other issues facing the world, short of everyone having some form of Awakening experience that would eliminate underlying causes such as greed, for example.

Just curious, though, why is focusing on consequences in future lives, but not alleviating suffering in this life, considered Dharma?
I think there are two misconceptions here.
The eightfold path, in fact, provides the whole foundation for alleviating suffering. But it has to come from the position of the individual. Keep in mind, the Buddha and his followers lived entirely by begging, and at the mercy and generosity of others. The sangha was referred to as “homeless brothers”. The thing is, you can’t impose that on people. Otherwise, it all just boils down to, “well, if everyone was Buddhist…” which is essentially the same as “if everyone was christian/proletarian/socialist/ …or whatever unifying category you choose. But that won’t happen. The whole essence of problems is that we aren’t all on the same page. Marx identified economic class contradictions as one example of that.

Also, Buddhism isn’t only focused on one’s next existence (except for the fact that your next existence is actually coming up this very moment, and the moment after that). The thing is, we can only put bandages on our condition in this lifetime. Not getting unwillingly sucked back into the cycle of samsara is the ultimate goal of Buddhism.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Lotomístico wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:56 pm
Yes, as I understand there Is a difference between the Buddhist and Hindú concept of Karma (Jainism also has the concept of Karma, though I know nothing about the finer points of the differences).
Indeed, you mentioned changing Karma as a Buddhist understanding... would this be primarily for future existences, or can people change their conditions in this life?
Both! I think the idea is that the causes have been created in the past (past lives and in this present life) for certain results to occur in the future (this life or future lives). Certain kinds of conditions need to be present for karma to come to fruition, and if the conditions aren’t there then that karma (karmic imprints) will lay dormant in one’s always consciousness until the time for fruition arrives and the right conditions are present. Through many kinds of practice (eg. Repentance practices) that karma can be purified and thus changed or removed completely.

That’s the overall theory of it.
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Lotomístico
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Lotomístico »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:02 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:46 pm Basically, then, there is nothing inherently in Dharma that could provide a means of solving human problems such as poverty and other issues facing the world, short of everyone having some form of Awakening experience that would eliminate underlying causes such as greed, for example.

Just curious, though, why is focusing on consequences in future lives, but not alleviating suffering in this life, considered Dharma?
I think there are two misconceptions here.
The eightfold path, in fact, provides the whole foundation for alleviating suffering. But it has to come from the position of the individual. Keep in mind, the Buddha and his followers lived entirely by begging, and at the mercy and generosity of others. The sangha was referred to as “homeless brothers”. The thing is, you can’t impose that on people. Otherwise, it all just boils down to, “well, if everyone was Buddhist…” which is essentially the same as “if everyone was christian/proletarian/socialist/ …or whatever unifying category you choose. But that won’t happen. The whole essence of problems is that we aren’t all on the same page. Marx identified economic class contradictions as one example of that.

Also, Buddhism isn’t only focused on one’s next existence (except for the fact that your next existence is actually coming up this very moment, and the moment after that). The thing is, we can only put bandages on our condition in this lifetime. Not getting unwillingly sucked back into the cycle of samsara is the ultimate goal of Buddhism.
Thank you for the clear and thoughtful explanation.
One should become the master of one’s mind rather than let one’s mind master oneself.
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Lotomístico
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Lotomístico »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:43 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:56 pm
Yes, as I understand there Is a difference between the Buddhist and Hindú concept of Karma (Jainism also has the concept of Karma, though I know nothing about the finer points of the differences).
Indeed, you mentioned changing Karma as a Buddhist understanding... would this be primarily for future existences, or can people change their conditions in this life?
Both! I think the idea is that the causes have been created in the past (past lives and in this present life) for certain results to occur in the future (this life or future lives). Certain kinds of conditions need to be present for karma to come to fruition, and if the conditions aren’t there then that karma (karmic imprints) will lay dormant in one’s always consciousness until the time for fruition arrives and the right conditions are present. Through many kinds of practice (eg. Repentance practices) that karma can be purified and thus changed or removed completely.

That’s the overall theory of it.
Your explanation was very helpful to me, thank you.
One should become the master of one’s mind rather than let one’s mind master oneself.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Buddhism's solution to abject poverty

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:10 pm …what práctical solutions can Buddhism offer to solve these problems?
Some Buddhist organisations runs orphanages, old folks homes, disabled homes, animals shelter, dialysis centre, schools… etc., support environment protection programmes such as cleaning hiking areas, rivers… n send relief, volunteers to disaster-hit areas.

The most common activities r visiting old folks homes, lone elder homes n orphanages to help clean up their place, performing some shows to cheer them up, giving them presents… etc. We also buy food packets for the homeless.

Individually, some Buddhist would personally make small donations to nearby disabled homes, orphanages n old folks home.

These r called Dana, contributing or giving to ppl n animals like food, medical help, introduce jobs… etc.

We cant change karma, we cant do much for people who r not willing to change too. But we can do things within our means, introduce jobs n guide them out of certain habits n thoughts. Practising Dana is a way to let go our attachment n bring some relief to those who r less fortunate. We get joy from doing this too. Little by little, we make a difference.

To be wealthy in our next life, we perform Dana or giving. Giving to monks, Sangha, monastery, Buddha… have boundless merits. But giving without harbouring such thoughts, no discrimination… have uncountable, boundless merits. Preaching the Dharma is also a form of Dana. This is higher than any material charity
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