Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

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Queequeg
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:54 am
Queequeg wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:49 pmYou might be introducing a Yogacara scheme here about true and false which I don't think is present in Madhyamaka.
Can you expand on what you think the Yogacara scheme is? I don't think I am doing this, but I'm interested in your thoughts on it, all the same.
I'm not all that familiar with it, but I understand in Yogacara there are Three Natures - Parikalpitasvabhava, Paratantrasvabhava, and Parinispannasvabhava. The first two are false, not true. Only the third has reality, is true. In Madhyamaka, there really isn't a true/false distinction. All compounded things are empty - doesn't matter if its a flying pink elephant or a cancerous tumor.
IMO, in order for us to speak of "integration" in general, we must necessarily use the language of multiplicity. One thing does not integrate with itself. The integration is integral in the case of "the integrated middle," and so there is non-contradiction, but in order to speak of "the intergrated" in general, let alone the integrated middle, we have to necessarily rely on the language of duality or multiplicity. Even Master Zhìzhě must rely on the language of multiplicity to speak of integration, even when the integration itself negates multiplicity.
No, I think the concepts you're working with are posing an obstacle, but I can't put my finger on it.

MMK 24.18.

Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.

Emptiness is straightforward. No mysticism about it. No need for gymnastics or logic games.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

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As for what is referred to as "the bodhisattva practice," evan at that very time in which one is engaged in the counting of the breaths, one should generate the great vow and abide in compassionate regard for beings. Even though one realizes that beings are ultimately empty of inherent existence, still, one wishes to bring beings to perfection and purify the buddhalands, carrying on with this practice to the very exhaustion of future time.

After one has made this vow, one should immediately and completely understand that those very breaths which are being conted are not produced and not destroyed. Their nature is emptiness and quiescence. Whatsoever is breath is just emptiness.

This is not a case of emptiness arrived at in the aftermath of the breath's destruction. Rather it is that the very nature of the breath is that it is inherently empty. The very breath itself is identical to emptiness. The very emptiness itself is identical with the breath. Apart from the emptiness, there is no breath. Apart from the breath there is no emptiness. This is the case with all other dharmas in precisely the same way.

Because the breath is empty of inherent existence, it is neither genuine nor false. It is neither worldly nor supramundane. One seeks to find the breath, is unable to apprehend either breath or non-breath, and yet still is able to perfect the mindfulness of the breath. That mindfulness of the breath which one perfects is like a dream, like an illusory conjuration, like an echo, and like [supernatural] transformation. Although there is no genuine phenonmenon which can be apprehended, still one engages in the making of distinctions with regard to the phenomena created through conjuration and [supernatural] transformation.

The bodhisattva's complete understanding of the breath is just like this. Although there is no [inherently-existent] nature of the breath which can be discovered, still, he perfects the mindfulness of the breath as he proceeds from "one" on up to "ten," with complete and utter distinctness and clarity. With profound depth of mind, he distinguishes the characteristics of that very breath which in nature, is like a mere conjuration.
Zhiyi, Six Subtle Dharma Gates


Read that today and thought it was relevant to this thread.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 am
I'm not all that familiar with it, but I understand in Yogacara there are Three Natures - Parikalpitasvabhava, Paratantrasvabhava, and Parinispannasvabhava. The first two are false, not true. Only the third has reality, is true.
That’s not at all correct. The absence of the Imagined nature in the dependent nature is the perfected nature.

The dependent nature Is both empty and not empty. This is the Yogacara idea of the middle way.
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

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Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:54 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 am
I'm not all that familiar with it, but I understand in Yogacara there are Three Natures - Parikalpitasvabhava, Paratantrasvabhava, and Parinispannasvabhava. The first two are false, not true. Only the third has reality, is true.
That’s not at all correct. The absence of the Imagined nature in the dependent nature is the perfected nature.

The dependent nature Is both empty and not empty. This is the Yogacara idea of the middle way.
Thank you. I need to understand that better. On the syllabus.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:54 am
Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 am
I'm not all that familiar with it, but I understand in Yogacara there are Three Natures - Parikalpitasvabhava, Paratantrasvabhava, and Parinispannasvabhava. The first two are false, not true. Only the third has reality, is true.
That’s not at all correct. The absence of the Imagined nature in the dependent nature is the perfected nature.

The dependent nature Is both empty and not empty. This is the Yogacara idea of the middle way.
Thank you. I need to understand that better. On the syllabus.
Madhyāntavibhangakārikā and its bhaśyaṃ, translated by D'Amato as Distinguishing the Middle, or as translated by the Dharmacakra Translation Committee, Middle Beyond Extremes.

The imagination of the unreal exists.
No duality exists in it.
Also that emptiness exists,
hence it is neither empty nor not empty.
That being so, everything is explained—
it is the middle way,
because of its existence, its nonexistence, and its existence.
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 amEmptiness is straightforward. No mysticism about it. No need for gymnastics or logic games.
When the Venerable Śrāvaka Ānanda was moved to describe the Buddha's Dharma, particularly pratītyasamutpāda, as open, easy, and straightforward, "plain as can be" in Ven Sujāto's rendering, the Buddha chastised him, saying "Don't say that, Ānanda." He then describes the Dharma as deep, difficult to fathom, known only by the wise, etc. One could well say that it is because emptiness is not straightforward, because it is difficult to understand and know and penetrate through to, "that this population has become tangled like string, knotted like a ball of thread, and matted like rushes and reeds, and it doesn’t escape the places of loss, the bad places, the underworld, transmigration" (Mahānidānasutta).
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Lazy Lubber »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:29 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:12 amEmptiness is straightforward. No mysticism about it. No need for gymnastics or logic games.
When the Venerable Śrāvaka Ānanda was moved to describe the Buddha's Dharma, particularly pratītyasamutpāda, as open, easy, and straightforward, "plain as can be" in Ven Sujāto's rendering, the Buddha chastised him, saying "Don't say that, Ānanda." He then describes the Dharma as deep, difficult to fathom, known only by the wise, etc. One could well say that it is because emptiness is not straightforward, because it is difficult to understand and know and penetrate through to, "that this population has become tangled like string, knotted like a ball of thread, and matted like rushes and reeds, and it doesn’t escape the places of loss, the bad places, the underworld, transmigration" (Mahānidānasutta).
In the quote above, the Dharma is said to be "difficult to fathom" by "this population" or "this generation", which refers to the world of unenlightened worldlings and outsiders to the Buddha-Dharma. :idea:
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Caoimhghín »

What, out of curiosity, was your motivation in coming here to post this, DooDoot? I'll give you a response after you answer me that. This wouldn't be about you getting roasted as a frivolous dilettante in the paṭiccasamuppāda & idappaccayatā thread on DhammaWheel, would it?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Queequeg
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Re: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in Tendai

Post by Queequeg »

Tatsuo wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:14 am Hello,

I rcently read about the concept of ichinen sanzen where in some moments Buddhahood is present in one's mind and in other times it is just there as a potentiality while other stages are dominant. I also vaguely remember there being a concept of stages with one stage being "verbal identity". How does full enlightenment (anuttara-samyak-sambodhi) look like in Tendai thought? Is it this present moment where we are already fully enlightened Buddhas even without any fundamental change and without getting rid of all defilements (hongaku)? Or is it closer to the older definitions of enlightenment which can be found in the Suttas of the Pali canon?
Back to the OP who may or may not still be around.

First, the teachings touched on should be identified clearly.
I rcently read about the concept of ichinen sanzen where in some moments Buddhahood is present in one's mind and in other times it is just there as a potentiality while other stages are dominant.
This is not quite ichinen sanzen. Ichinen Sanzen is a more comprehensive view. This is a component teaching of ichinen sanzen, namely, the Mutual Inclusion of the Ten Worlds. This is a teaching fundamentally about buddhanature, but also about impermanence and potentiality. Each of the 10 worlds is associated with predominant characteristics of the mind. This is not particularly novel. Hell is characterized by a paralyzing futility against the environment. Preta is characterized by unremitting craving. Animal realm is characterized by amoral opportunism - when one is able to dominate, one dominates; when one cannot dominate, one is obsequiously servile. Ashura is characterized by anger grounded in not getting what one wants. The human realm is marked by contentment. The deva realm is characterized by bliss. The Sravaka realm is characterized by the dawning of insight into reality. The pratyekabuddha/arhat realm is characterized by relative mastery of the insights into reality. The Bodhisattva realm is characterized by compassion and the application of insights to helping living beings. The Buddha realm is characterized by the perfection of wisdom and function (not conduct because intent is not part of the equation). The Buddha realm also stands in contrast to the other nine realms as being the only realm completely free of ignorance and suffering. The others all have ignorance and suffering to various degrees, which can be recognized only because of the example of the buddha. Perfect wisdom is discernible only in relation to ignorance, and vice versa. (This also tells us this teaching on the mutual possession of the ten worlds, and indeed ichinen sanzen are conventional teachings).

Each of these worlds have the potential of the other nine worlds which express from time to time. When we say the Buddhahood can express within the hell realm, first of all, this is extremely rare, maybe possible only in theory, but, it means that even a hell being could for an instant see reality clearly. On the flip side, a buddha is said to have the potential for hell, meaning the buddha has the capacity to enter and relate to a hell being. In order to do that, the buddha thoroughly knows the nature of hell and how to lead a being out of it. A buddha could not do that if there were no connection to hell. When analyzed through the gradual path, this expresses a bit differently - leading to some poignant assertions like the Buddha possesses evil and such, but these are contextual ideas that are limited to conventional analyses of the world.
I also vaguely remember there being a concept of stages with one stage being "verbal identity".
As Seishin points out, this is the second of six identities. Seishin also pointed out that this is related to the 42 stages of bodhisattva practice - you can find this in the Avatamsaka Sutra and a couple other sources IIRC (Brahmajala?). I think its also related to the Pancamarga, with the teaching on Buddhanature/Tathagatagarbha added as the first stage, ie. Buddha in Principle.

In the Six Identities - this is what how the end of the Six Identities is described by Zhiyi, which we can take as a description of annuttarasamyaksambodhi:
Bodhi[citta] [at the level of] ultimate identity means [advancing] one more step from [the level of] “[almost] equivalent to awakening” to enter subtle (sub-lime) awakening UÓ, where the light of wisdom is perfect and complete and does not need to increase any more. This is called the fruit which is bodhi-wisdom. Nothing more is severed at the time of mah„parinirv„«a. This is called the fruit of fruits. A person [at the stage of] “equivalent to awakening” does not pass [to this fruit]; only a Buddha is able to pass. There is no path to expound beyond ^ha [the last letter in the Siddham alphabet]. Therefore this is called “ultimate bodhi,” and is also called “ultimate cessation and contemplation.”
It should be noted that ichinen sanzen and the six identities are different systems of a analysis and don't have overlap, and so using one to try and understand the other is not going to be particularly productive. They do have complementary functions, but I'm not sure that's readily discernible without a good grasp on them separately.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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