Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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PadmaVonSamba
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Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

This article expresses the concern that Asian Americans have been left out of the popular idea of Buddhism in America. What are your thoughts?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-amer ... e-rcna1236
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

Post by Ayu »

I can resonate with their view. White supremacy doesn't stop at the doors of buddhist temples.
It's not only a problem in the US. I met some German Buddhists as well frowning at Thai or Tibetan traditions, trying to explain their own view of Buddhism to the Asian people. I find it very embarrassing whenever I see it.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Just shoot me now.
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:33 pm I can resonate with their view. White supremacy doesn't stop at the doors of buddhist temples.
It's not only a problem in the US. I met some German Buddhists as well frowning at Thai or Tibetan traditions, trying to explain their own view of Buddhism to the Asian people. I find it very embarrassing whenever I see it.
Like the woke forcing the term Latinx on people? Or Filipinx? Or their insane gender ideology? Or maintaining all white people are racist? Or reintroducing racial segregation? :lol:
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

Post by Ayu »

Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:01 pm Just shoot me now.
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:33 pm I can resonate with their view. White supremacy doesn't stop at the doors of buddhist temples.
It's not only a problem in the US. I met some German Buddhists as well frowning at Thai or Tibetan traditions, trying to explain their own view of Buddhism to the Asian people. I find it very embarrassing whenever I see it.
Like the woke forcing the term Latinx on people? Or Filipinx? Or their insane gender ideology? Or maintaining all white people are racist? Or reintroducing racial segregation? :lol:
Yes, as far as I understand these phenomena are similarly stupid, aren't they?

But for sure it matters as well, how much damage is done by stupid ideas of superiority. If people only hurt you by leading exhausting discussions it's not as bad as not granting human rights to everybody or supposing you to be stupid due to the color of your skin.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:01 pm Just shoot me now.
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:33 pm I can resonate with their view. White supremacy doesn't stop at the doors of buddhist temples.
It's not only a problem in the US. I met some German Buddhists as well frowning at Thai or Tibetan traditions, trying to explain their own view of Buddhism to the Asian people. I find it very embarrassing whenever I see it.
Like the woke forcing the term Latinx on people? Or Filipinx? Or their insane gender ideology? Or maintaining all white people are racist? Or reintroducing racial segregation? :lol:
Yes, as far as I understand these phenomena are similarly stupid, aren't they?

But for sure it matters as well, how much damage is done by stupid ideas of superiority. If people only hurt you by leading exhausting discussions it's not as bad as not granting human rights to everybody or supposing you to be stupid due to the color of your skin.
Asian American Buddhists reclaiming their narrative after decades of white dominence is one thing. Couching it in terms of omnipresent White Supremacy (i.e. the current ideological psychotic nonsense) is dangerous and harmful.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:42 pm
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:01 pm Just shoot me now.


Like the woke forcing the term Latinx on people? Or Filipinx? Or their insane gender ideology? Or maintaining all white people are racist? Or reintroducing racial segregation? :lol:
Yes, as far as I understand these phenomena are similarly stupid, aren't they?

But for sure it matters as well, how much damage is done by stupid ideas of superiority. If people only hurt you by leading exhausting discussions it's not as bad as not granting human rights to everybody or supposing you to be stupid due to the color of your skin.
Asian American Buddhists reclaiming their narrative after decades of white dominence is one thing. Couching it in terms of omnipresent White Supremacy (i.e. the current ideological psychotic nonsense) is dangerous and harmful.
How did the article do that? It didn’t mention new terms, nor white supremacy beyond the recent uptick in anti-Asian stuff, that I saw. Did you read the article?
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

Post by Ayu »

Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:42 pm
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:01 pm Just shoot me now.


Like the woke forcing the term Latinx on people? Or Filipinx? Or their insane gender ideology? Or maintaining all white people are racist? Or reintroducing racial segregation? :lol:
Yes, as far as I understand these phenomena are similarly stupid, aren't they?

But for sure it matters as well, how much damage is done by stupid ideas of superiority. If people only hurt you by leading exhausting discussions it's not as bad as not granting human rights to everybody or supposing you to be stupid due to the color of your skin.
Asian American Buddhists reclaiming their narrative after decades of white dominence is one thing. Couching it in terms of omnipresent White Supremacy (i.e. the current ideological psychotic nonsense) is dangerous and harmful.
Why do you think it's harmful?
I don't know how psychotic the ideological nonsense is right now in the US. I'm not there.

In my area (Germany) there is a wide discussion right now about becoming aware of unconscious racism. I agree with you that this new discussion is lead hysterically and biased from time to time. But I don't think it is dangerous. Rather I believe, it's time to have it.

On topic I can say, I know a young white Canadian who ordained in Tibetan Buddhism and he sometimes expresses his gratitude for Tibetan masters and traditions. He says there is no reason for looking down at them from Western perspective.
He posted this a couple of times over at Facebook over the years now and every time again I think: "Yes, thank you. Somebody has to utter this clearly."
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:53 pm
Archie2009 wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:42 pm
Ayu wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:20 pm
Yes, as far as I understand these phenomena are similarly stupid, aren't they?

But for sure it matters as well, how much damage is done by stupid ideas of superiority. If people only hurt you by leading exhausting discussions it's not as bad as not granting human rights to everybody or supposing you to be stupid due to the color of your skin.
Asian American Buddhists reclaiming their narrative after decades of white dominence is one thing. Couching it in terms of omnipresent White Supremacy (i.e. the current ideological psychotic nonsense) is dangerous and harmful.
How did the article do that? It didn’t mention new terms, nor white supremacy beyond the recent uptick in anti-Asian stuff, that I saw. Did you read the article?
JD, I think, Archie was reacting to my wording"white supremacy". Did I use the term in the wrong context?
I meant 'the feeling of superiority due to being a Westerner'.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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It's only natural that there will be cultural differences. Buddhism is an international religion and the invitation to follow the Dharma belongs to all sentient beings. But look at the differences in Buddhist "flavor" just between different countries in Asia and it's obvious that there will be a big gap when it crosses racial and continental lines.

I think it will be a positive thing for more white practioners to be exposed to a different angle on Buddhism by contact with Asian and Asian-descended "cultural Buddhists." After having practiced most of my Buddhist "career" in Asia it's quite obvious to me that the cultural difference especially among the laity in are enormous. I could make all kinds of valid generalizations about those differences but I won't because that's a touchy thing to do these days.

If Korea can be a virtually Christian nation, there is no reason why non-Asians cannot be just as sincere and valid in their Buddhism as Asians. But Korean Christianity is a different beast than US or European Christianity, even among Korean immigrants in the west. It's to be expected that "white Buddhism" will also differ from "Asian Buddhism" as a matter of course. For our lifetimes, at least. For everyone to accept this with a bit of patience and compassion is probably the best way to go all around.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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This is an interesting issue. On the one hand, mainstream American Buddhism is definitely White and upper class, and has it’s own issues besides. On the other hand, Buddhism itself is ostensibly not a culturally or ethnically specific religion in the way say, Judaism can be.

So, I get it and agree that the public face of Buddhism here is very white, but I struggle to understand how an ‘Asian American Buddhism’ would define itself, and what it’s reasons would be for doing so.

Certainly, in terms of teachers specifically in America it is not unusual to see Asian teachers presented as the authority figures…to a point of naivety or tokenism at times.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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In Islam where arabic is the dominant language and arabic the dominant culture you see white converts taking arabic names, learning arabic, dressing arabic etcetera. We see the same thing in Tibetan Buddhism (especially?) and other forms of Buddhism. Hardly think these people are white supermacists...

It's more due to changing demographics, no? America was founded by Europeans and people of European descent have been the majority culture for a very long time - thus generally more focus on the experiences of these people. Now its changing and young Asians want their due share.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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One of the teeth-grindingly annoying cliches I often hear tossed about by more "casual" Western practitioners who may identify as Buddhist is "Buddhism is not a religion, it's a philosophy." Or sometimes "a way of life", whatever that means.

Nope nope nope, sorry Dharma-lite folks, it's a religion. There are millions and millions of devout Asian Buddhists who have not a clue about Madyamaka versus Yogacara tenet systems or what have you, but who devoutly chant in front of the family alter each morning, venerate their ancestors and the Buddhas/Bodhisattvas from the heart rather than the cerebral cortex. They may be preoccupied more with "merit" than with "emptiness," with faith rather than doctrine, with festivals and the community support systems that have grown up around local temples. This real "Boots on the ground" Buddhism in a sense you don't often see it practiced in the West among non-Asian ethnicities.

For the west to get a dose of this ancient way of being Buddhist is eminently healthy IMHO.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:25 pm One of the teeth-grindingly annoying cliches I often hear tossed about by more "casual" Western practitioners who may identify as Buddhist is "Buddhism is not a religion, it's a philosophy." Or sometimes "a way of life", whatever that means.

Nope nope nope, sorry Dharma-lite folks, it's a religion. There are millions and millions of devout Asian Buddhists who have not a clue about Madyamaka versus Yogacara tenet systems or what have you, but who devoutly chant in front of the family alter each morning, venerate their ancestors and the Buddhas/Bodhisattvas from the heart rather than the cerebral cortex. They may be preoccupied more with "merit" than with "emptiness," with faith rather than doctrine, with festivals and the community support systems that have grown up around local temples. This real "Boots on the ground" Buddhism in a sense you don't often see it practiced in the West among non-Asian ethnicities.

For the west to get a dose of this ancient way of being Buddhist is eminently healthy IMHO.
I agree with this mostly, however my feeling is that the cultural clash of this sort of Buddhism with the "white" variety might spark a more balanced approach overall. On a personal level I feel a rote "Asian" Buddhism is as incomplete as the supposedly white varieties. BTW, I do not only think of white Buddhism here as Buddhism-lite. Most serious Vajrayana students I have met are white and likely middle class or above.

One of my teachers (Tibetan) has said that he likes the fact that Western students tend to take philosophy and meditation more seriously than some Tibetan lay practitioners. My recollection is that he has said that teaching Western laypeople texts is more similar to ordained people in some aspects, because they are attentive, retain stuff and meditate, rather than maybe just going through the motions of donating, showing up to do Pujas once in a while, etc. but not really making effort sin meditation, study, etc. DJKR has made similar commentary about the plusses and minuses of Asian vs. Western students. It is not a black and white thing of course.

So, while this "Asian Buddhism" certainly has qualities that I think the dominant strains here might do well to expose themselves to, it can have it's drawbacks too (just going through the motions for one - literally - analogous to some Christians here), and in the end people are either following teachings or they aren't, period. Arguments of authority in Buddhism should be based on that, not the fact that someone's ethnic lineage has been doing devotional practices for longer. So to me it is the devotional attitude that is admirable in these circles (yes I've attended some services in this vein, and there were qualities I really do admire), but devotion alone is no more a marker of completeness or authenticity than the intellectual, supposedly White form is.
For the west to get a dose of this ancient way of being Buddhist is eminently healthy IMHO.
This is IMO, a bit of a romanticized take on what it's actually like in a boots-on-the-ground sense. There is something vital there in places for sure, but then there are neon-Buddha bake sales or whatever. It is no more an ancient form of practicing than modern Catholics going to church or having social gatherings is ancient, it's just devotional/socially -based. There are some very good things to that, of course. "Western" Buddhism could use more of them in my opinion.
Brunelleschi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:04 pm In Islam where arabic is the dominant language and arabic the dominant culture you see white converts taking arabic names, learning arabic, dressing arabic etcetera. We see the same thing in Tibetan Buddhism (especially?) and other forms of Buddhism. Hardly think these people are white supermacists...
Was that even mentioned in the article?
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:49 pmWas that even mentioned in the article?
Well, its being tied into the overarching narrative of white supremacy. Furthermore, the interviewed scholar in the article seem to have the notion that white Buddhist practitioners think of Asian (American) Buddhist practitioners as "lesser". See quote below.
from article wrote:“My big dream,” Tillakaratne said, “is that it’s not just about having this token Asian voice. ... It’s about normalizing voices of color in Buddhism in America until we get to the place where, when you open Lion’s Roar or any magazine and you see the pictures of the contributors, of course there are people from all ethnicities and backgrounds and they have equal weight and that we’re no longer thinking about Asian American Buddhists in particular as lesser.”
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Brunelleschi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:12 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:49 pmWas that even mentioned in the article?
Well, its being tied into the overarching narrative of white supremacy. Furthermore, the interviewed scholar in the article seem to have the notion that white Buddhist practitioners think of Asian (American) Buddhist practitioners as "lesser". See quote below.
from article wrote:“My big dream,” Tillakaratne said, “is that it’s not just about having this token Asian voice. ... It’s about normalizing voices of color in Buddhism in America until we get to the place where, when you open Lion’s Roar or any magazine and you see the pictures of the contributors, of course there are people from all ethnicities and backgrounds and they have equal weight and that we’re no longer thinking about Asian American Buddhists in particular as lesser.”
What does that have to do with what you mentioned though? I didn't see the article accuse Western converts of cultural appropriation or anything like that, unless I missed it.

For my part, the most inaccurate part of the article is that, in fact, plenty of the teachers represented in mainstream Buddhist rags are in fact Asian. I'm also not sure Asian Buddhists are thought of as "lesser", and a lot of times Asian Buddhist communities here don't mix much at all with either the larger community, or even the larger Buddhist community. In that sense, it's kind of unsurprising that they are less represented...wherever the authors want them to be represented.

We have a kind of pan-Dharma organization here in the Pacific Northwest of the US that actually used to (don't know if they are done since Covid, just don't do it anymore or what) host this annual pan-Dharma event, with teachings and various things from all kinds of traditions. As far as I know it was mostly white Buddhists facilitating it. So, white Buddhists had to ask all these groups that usually just do their own thing to show up to this event. I didn't even know about the Vietnamese temple in town until (to their credit) a dude showed up to our little puja to invite us to a vegetarian lunch at the temple.

So to me the naivete of the article is that it assumes representation in a community is some dial that can just be flipped, when in fact it's much more complex than that. We have a number of Asian Buddhist communities in my town, with the possible exception of the Vietnamese temple (which is really down to their exceptional friendliness) they seem to be pretty insular communities.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:13 pm What does that have to do with what you mentioned though? I didn't see the article accuse Western converts of cultural appropriation or anything like that, unless I missed it.
My point is you literally have white people out here trying to act Asian, going as far as changing their name. So I don't believe that they believe Asians to be lesser.

Although I gotta say, the point of the article wasn't exactly crystal clear.

A big factor is probably that hu-white people and Asians practice in different centers - it seems to be the same in Europe. :shrug:
Last edited by Brunelleschi on Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Brunelleschi wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:24 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:13 pm What does that have to do with what you mentioned though? I didn't see the article accuse Western converts of cultural appropriation or anything like that, unless I missed it.
My point is you literally have white people out here trying to act Asian, going as far as changing their name. So I don't believe that they believe Asians to be lesser.
Ah ok, I get your point.

Anyway, I think the person interviewed for the article who wants "all voices to have equal weight" is maybe taking a somewhat contradictory position. All voices should not have equal weight, rather people who are accurately and seriously transmitting teachings should be listened to - including Asian Buddhist teachers etc., and students should educate themselves well enough to know the difference. If anyone is left out due to demographics, sure that's a problem.

So it is kind of funny, because in her quest to "equalize" Buddhism she seems to be taking a very modern Western view on the value of knowledge - that somehow it is all valuable because all people are valuable.

Part of the meritocratic idea in Buddhism is that people are right when they are Right..i.e that their right view and teachings produce the results they are supposed to, etc. Demographics do not produce Dharma teaching, though they might be very important in other ways.

I can think of one place where I can kind of see her point, which is that in the US it is much easier for the average Buddhist-curious person to get casual exposure to "Western Zen" than to traditional Asian schools. This is indeed kind of unfortunate.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:49 pm BTW, I do not only think of white Buddhism here as Buddhism-lite.
I completely agree with you...the seriousness of Buddhists on DharmaWheel (who are I believe many if not most westerners, given the English language format) is evidence of this. So is all the magnificent scholarly work and translations that have come out of the. West on a steady basis since the 90s or so, when the nuance really ramped up.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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Well, I think Americans discovered Buddhism much the same way that Columbus ‘discovered’ America, It doesn’t mean there wasn’t already a large Buddhist population here, but we found something new to us, and we took it in a different direction.

And yes, there were (and are) Buddhist journals in America, written in Japanese or Chinese, but they weren’t (and aren’t) part of the mainstream, mass marketing magazine distribution network the way you’d find Tricycle, Lion’s Roar, and a few others at the nearest Barnes & Noble. And those are all targeting the western-convert audience.

I will point out that tricycle does to a very good job for what it is (and there is all the potential for a mass-market magazine about Buddhism to be really terrible). I have my own criticisms of it of course, and I’m sure many here do. But over the years they have in fact paid attention to the Asian-inherited Dharma community, and have addressed these kind of issues frequently.

It could also just as easily be argued that it’s simply not the job of western-converts to be the ones presenting Asian-inherited Buddhism, and that it would be both absurd and audacious to think we could. I’m sure the last thing Mr. Liu needs is Mr. Heinzburg’s interpretation of what it means to be Buddhist and Chinese in America. So, if Asian Buddhists want to make their voices heard, all power to you. We can’t make your voices heard, can we?

My experience has been that western converts really want exposure to the wide variety of traditional Buddhist practices and beliefs of Asia, both northern and southern, Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana, Zen, to learn from it, and to be included in it and in its authenticity. But, without making extra effort to overcome cultural awkwardness and language barriers, we find ourselves as outsiders (which to a very great extent, frankly, we always will be) in those communities. And I think that’s fine. We were all born where we were and into the families we grew up in because of karma, right?

Personally, I do try to make the effort, as clumsy and out of place as I inevitably am. I learned to speak mandarin (I can now speak poor, unintelligible Chinese quite fluently) and have made many friends with Tibetan lamas, Thai monks, Chinese Pure Land devotees… really, anyone I could meet. So, I don’t think making connections and building dharma bridges is going to be an impossible task. Nor do I think this is specifically an east-west issue. By that, I mean that I don’t know if there’s a lot of mutual dharma practice going on between and within different Asian communities. I would guess that the number of Nichiren followers who chant at nearby Thai temples, or Chinese Pure Land practitioners regularly going to events at a Jodo Shinshu temple is relatively small.

I do think the article does bring up very valid points, that there is often a disregard among we ‘academic’ western Buddhists (aka, atheists who like to burn too much incense) toward what we perceive as the ‘quaint’ Buddhist practices of the Far East, which we see as far too religious, too much like god-worshipping (exactly what so many of us spent years trying to escape from!).
What’s probably lacking more than anything is simply more one-one communication. Still, there are simply some differences that can never fully be experienced.
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Re: Young Asian American Buddhists are reclaiming narrative after decades of white dominance

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As an Asian American Buddhist it seems to me these kids have internalized American attitudes about race and vocabulary of the current racial dialogue. Not necessarily a good thing, imho. Turns this project into a critical race theory discussion rather than a Buddhist discussion. I get it clueless white people visiting your temple can be annoying and worse if they start telling you how to really be Buddhist. :eye roll: but this:
My big dream,” Tillakaratne said, “is that it’s not just about having this token Asian voice. ... It’s about normalizing voices of color in Buddhism in America until we get to the place where, when you open Lion’s Roar or any magazine and you see the pictures of the contributors, of course there are people from all ethnicities and backgrounds and they have equal weight and that we’re no longer thinking about Asian American Buddhists in particular as lesser.”
Sounds exhausting and petty. I get the need for representation, but getting a voice just because you have the right look sounds a shallow and superficial as other arbitrary biases.

Maybe I just never expected much of most Western Buddhist publications so the glamor head shots of the authors of articles just confirmed my opinion of the silliness in that scene. they sell those magazines next to People at the grocery store checkout line. I mean, come on. You want to join THAT club? Seriously?
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