in the weeds here

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Minobu
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in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

So as seen in the mahayana section i had a bad morning with my Nichiren practice.

As Q would tell anyone up until a few months ago after more than 40 years with an on again off again Nichiren practice, i thought Zhi Yi and tendai was just like a foot note for Nichiren .

Had some crude idea of the ten worlds , where if i was depressed a ton of daimoku with the knowledge i could transverse a few worlds out of the depression always worked for me.

that was it for Ten dai and Nichiren and me...a gakki esque approach to the ten worlds...

To my surprise appernetly Nichiren practice is based practically entirely on TenDai...

and Ten Dai is derived from something that points to ichinen sanzen written in the Lotus sutra.
I'm having to reinvent my Nichiren Practice in order to come to terms with something....


why am i here in Ten Dai section asking questions /

Because it's apparently the root to Nichiren Practice...

so i need to know and meditate on for awhile to get it right...

what words in the Lotus sutra inspired Zhi Yi to produce a whole new Buddhist school.

I realize i'm in a Ten Dai section and my comments on such , what ever i arrive at if the question gets answered ...would not be appropriate to post here..

why?

because i know myself and the wrong views i acquire and post as factual only to be blown away...

my learning process does harm...online any way...

so i will keep schtumm.


please i need to know the part of the Lotus sutra where TenDai is baseing ichinen sanzen from...

i cannot go on reinventing Nichiren in order to appease my ignorance and in order to maintain any sort of faith in the practice...

really in the weeds here.

are there any words in the Lotus sutra that actually spell out ichinen sanzen?
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Re: in the weeds here

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Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
I thought that was to do with emptiness.sunyata..

i need to know if thats it...how does one derive the 3000 moments in single moment ichinen sanzen thing...

and i'm surprised you answered with this...

only questions ..only questions...
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Re: in the weeds here

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Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
I thought that was to do with emptiness.sunyata..

i need to know if thats it...how does one derive the 3000 moments in single moment ichinen sanzen thing...

and i'm surprised you answered with this...

only questions ..only questions...
Of course it has to do with Sunyata. Underlying ichinen sanzen is the Threefold Inclusive Truth - Emptiness, Conventionality, and the Middle.

Three Thousand is just a number. Its not literal.

Ichinen Sanzen isn't even mentioned until the 7th section of Maka Shikan, which was the last major teaching Zhiyi gave, and the explanation is never completed. The text just ends before its supposed to. Some speculate this was intentional - a way to emphasize one of the teachings that permeate the whole work - "No one but the buddhas can completely know..." How silly it would be to attempt to fully capture the teaching in words. The peak can be pointed out against the sky, and the path leading up can be pointed out, but one must climb themselves.

These books are not meant to tell you what to think. They open the doors for you to find out for yourself, awaken, not just feed you more refined stuff to believe.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:31 pm he text just ends before its supposed to. Some speculate this was intentional - a way to emphasize one of the teachings that permeate the whole work - "No one but the buddhas can completely know..." How silly it would be to attempt to fully capture the teaching in words.
Many Tibetan texts basically state that the explanation of the result happens when you realize the result.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Caoimhghín »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
Such a tease. Come on, give us some kanji. We're jonesing here.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:31 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
I thought that was to do with emptiness.sunyata..

i need to know if thats it...how does one derive the 3000 moments in single moment ichinen sanzen thing...

and i'm surprised you answered with this...

only questions ..only questions...
Of course it has to do with Sunyata. Underlying ichinen sanzen is the Threefold Inclusive Truth - Emptiness, Conventionality, and the Middle.

Three Thousand is just a number. Its not literal.

Ichinen Sanzen isn't even mentioned until the 7th section of Maka Shikan, which was the last major teaching Zhiyi gave, and the explanation is never completed. The text just ends before its supposed to. Some speculate this was intentional - a way to emphasize one of the teachings that permeate the whole work - "No one but the buddhas can completely know..." How silly it would be to attempt to fully capture the teaching in words. The peak can be pointed out against the sky, and the path leading up can be pointed out, but one must climb themselves.

These books are not meant to tell you what to think. They open the doors for you to find out for yourself, awaken, not just feed you more refined stuff to believe.
Well i thought He dies before completing his last work...

and Sunyata can be used to describe anything ..for it is the nature of everything...


still how does Zhi Yi derive ichinen sanzen from those words...those words can be applied to any study of anything...

they are the nature of the beast...

but ichinen sanzen is whole new thing to be held up to the litmus test of sunyata...which it does for it is inevitable...

where in the lotus sutra does it come from...

Surely Zhi yi told us...
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:49 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
Such a tease. Come on, give us some kanji. We're jonesing here.
Maybe later. Nichiren and Tendai Buddhists chant this regularly. They'd know where to find this. Its from the Hoben chapter.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Caoimhghín »

Got it
(唯佛與佛乃能究盡諸法實相)所謂諸法如是相如是性如是體如是力如是作如是因如是緣如是果如是報如是本末究竟等
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:03 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:49 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:07 pm Shoishoho. Nyo ze so. Nyo ze sho. Nyo ze tai. Nyo ze riki, Nyo ze sa. Nyo ze in. Nyo ze en. Nyo ze ka. Nyo ze ho. Nyo ze honmatsukukkyoto.

[No one but the buddhas can completely know] the real aspects of all dharmas—that is to say thus character, thus nature, thus substance, thus potential, thus function, thus cause, thus condition, thus result, thus effect, and thus essential unity.
Such a tease. Come on, give us some kanji. We're jonesing here.
Maybe later. Nichiren and Tendai Buddhists chant this regularly. They'd know where to find this. Its from the Hoben chapter.
But that is a sunyata thing...
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Seishin »

FWIW, I don't believe Zhiyi was intentionally trying to create a new sect. When we look at the teachings of his teachers, as well as those of figures such as Nagarjuna, I think it is clear that Zhiyi was carrying these teachings forward, but in his own (brilliant) way.

As for ichinen sanzen, I've broken down the components on my website https://tendaiuk.com/2016/05/05/ichinen-sanzen/. It should be noted that Zhiyi did not rely solely on the Lotus Sutra in his teachings, but on a very large and broad range of scriptures and teachings. This depth has continued in Japanese Tendai, which is one of the reasons why the Kamakura schools derogatively referred to Tendai as being too scholastic.

Gassho,
Seishin
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Re: in the weeds here

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Seishin wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:54 amIt should be noted that Zhiyi did not rely solely on the Lotus Sutra in his teachings, but on a very large and broad range of scriptures and teachings.
Since many people come to Zhiyi through Nichiren, it is critical to emphasize this point. The Avatamsaka and Prajna Paramita with the Ta Chi Tu Lun, a commentary on the Pancavimsatisahasrika Prajna Paramita Sutra (25,000 lines), are critically important texts.

Originally, the training on Mt. Hiei required a 12 year commitment to either Esoteric or Exoteric teachings. Clearly more than one text was studied during that training.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

Seishin wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:54 am FWIW, I don't believe Zhiyi was intentionally trying to create a new sect. When we look at the teachings of his teachers, as well as those of figures such as Nagarjuna, I think it is clear that Zhiyi was carrying these teachings forward, but in his own (brilliant) way.

As for ichinen sanzen, I've broken down the components on my website https://tendaiuk.com/2016/05/05/ichinen-sanzen/. It should be noted that Zhiyi did not rely solely on the Lotus Sutra in his teachings, but on a very large and broad range of scriptures and teachings. This depth has continued in Japanese Tendai, which is one of the reasons why the Kamakura schools derogatively referred to Tendai as being too scholastic.

Gassho,
Seishin
thanks for the link..

from the link we get
The basis of the 3000 worlds stems mainly from the Lotus Sutra, but also from the general corpus of Buddhist Material, and Mahayana texts, especially Nagarjuna’s Mahaprajnaparamita-shastra. To start with, let us look at the 10 Worlds;
so i just would like to know from what text do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...

Q said it is derived from nyo ze so and that piece in the Lotus sutra...but this was always a piece to do with Sunyata. Never before Tien Tai the great did anyone discuss this as a ten world ichinen sanzen anything...just sunyata stuff...of course Sunyata covers the nature of anything and everything ...and a lot of times people just tack it on things and say it proves such and such.... to just fool someone....Same thing with claims of content in the lotus sutra that just are not there...

how do you get the ten world theory from this...

or maybe you know where it is in the Lotus Sutra...


other wise it is just theory made up by some guy and hung the Lotus sutra on it to give it some sort of weight in who they are presenting it to...




It reminds me of alchemists of old who would get money from kings and queens and they would hand in all sort of made up nonsense to continue their own meditative studies...stuff like they were working on how to literally change lead into gold ...and the elixir of eternal life...

it's odd but i believe Tien Tai the great was handing in some theory to the emperor at his request but died before finishing it.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am
so i just would like to know from what text do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...
Yes, there is no mention of this there.

These ideas arose out of how Chinese people thought about the world. One finds other uniquely Chinese ideas in Hua Yen, Chan, and so on.

The same applies to Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Buddhism, Thai Buddhism, etc.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by LastLegend »

Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am
Seishin wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:54 am FWIW, I don't believe Zhiyi was intentionally trying to create a new sect. When we look at the teachings of his teachers, as well as those of figures such as Nagarjuna, I think it is clear that Zhiyi was carrying these teachings forward, but in his own (brilliant) way.

As for ichinen sanzen, I've broken down the components on my website https://tendaiuk.com/2016/05/05/ichinen-sanzen/. It should be noted that Zhiyi did not rely solely on the Lotus Sutra in his teachings, but on a very large and broad range of scriptures and teachings. This depth has continued in Japanese Tendai, which is one of the reasons why the Kamakura schools derogatively referred to Tendai as being too scholastic.

Gassho,
Seishin
thanks for the link..

from the link we get
The basis of the 3000 worlds stems mainly from the Lotus Sutra, but also from the general corpus of Buddhist Material, and Mahayana texts, especially Nagarjuna’s Mahaprajnaparamita-shastra. To start with, let us look at the 10 Worlds;
so i just would like to know from what text do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...

Q said it is derived from nyo ze so and that piece in the Lotus sutra...but this was always a piece to do with Sunyata. Never before Tien Tai the great did anyone discuss this as a ten world ichinen sanzen anything...just sunyata stuff...of course Sunyata covers the nature of anything and everything ...and a lot of times people just tack it on things and say it proves such and such.... to just fool someone....Same thing with claims of content in the lotus sutra that just are not there...

how do you get the ten world theory from this...

or maybe you know where it is in the Lotus Sutra...


other wise it is just theory made up by some guy and hung the Lotus sutra on it to give it some sort of weight in who they are presenting it to...




It reminds me of alchemists of old who would get money from kings and queens and they would hand in all sort of made up nonsense to continue their own meditative studies...stuff like they were working on how to literally change lead into gold ...and the elixir of eternal life...

it's odd but i believe Tien Tai the great was handing in some theory to the emperor at his request but died before finishing it.
10 Worlds are 10 realms. When we get angry and want to kill, that’s hell realm.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by haha »

what words in the Lotus sutra inspired Zhi Yi to produce a whole new Buddhist school.
Zhiyi’s confession before his death might indicate that he was carrying out his teacher’s instructions/teachings.
Last edited by haha on Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Minobu »

haha wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:42 pm
what words in the Lotus sutra inspired Zhi Yi to produce a whole new Buddhist school.
Crickets chirping.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Malcolm »

LastLegend wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:51 pm 10 Worlds are 10 realms. When we get angry and want to kill, that’s hell realm.
So what corresponds to the experience of arhats, pratyekabuddhas, bodhisattvas, and buddhas? After all, the whole point of this idea is that all are included in a single mental moment, which, when misunderstood, leads to such ideas that buddhas etc, experience suffering of the six realms.
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Re: in the weeds here

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“Those who have arrived at reality perceive things as they really are and see that all the forms of the three realms [of desire, of form, and of formless states] are neither born nor die, though they seem to disappear and appear. They see there is no such thing as being in the world or being extinct. They see that these forms are neither real nor unreal, neither so nor not so – they do not perceive the three realms as those in the three realms see them. Those who have arrived at reality perceive these facts clearly, with no mistake about it.

Thomas Cleary’s translation of Lotus Sutra. Page 311.

I am not sure if this makes a reference that are relevant to us as Earth practitioners or Bodhisattvas. If people say Buddha has no thoughts or perceptions, I wouldn’t know.

It’s possible that people have touched down but haven’t yet to turn consciousness into wisdom. This step can be missing. Which explains the suffering.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: in the weeds here

Post by Seishin »

Forgive me if I format this wrong. It's been a long time since I posted here...
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am so i just would like to know from what text do you get the ten worlds from.

i don't see any mention in the Lotus sutra...
If you're looking for a quote saying "there are 10 Worlds" you won't find it, accept for passing reference to Ten Worlds in chapter 9 (page 166 BDK, page 182 Kosei). This passing reference may be simply a translation thing, so I wouldn't put much weight into it. In reality, the 10 worlds is an interpretation and understanding, which is why it is unique to the Lotus Schools, through Zhiyi. As I said on my website, the 10 Worlds comprise of the standard 6 Realms, with the addition of Sravaka, Pratyeka, Bodhisattva and Buddha. These are all mentioned in the Lotus Sutra, but not as 10 Worlds, or as 4 higher realms for the latter etc. This is because it is an interpretation of the text (I'm not even sure if this is Zhiyi's interpretation or by others). I think what is important to stress here, is that these 10 are described by Zhiyi as mental realms, not realms that we are born in to (although we are reborn in the 6, we are not reborn in the 4). The reasons of including the 4, and for viewing these as mental realms are manifold and based on numerous texts, not just the Lotus Sutra. However, one clue was mentioned by Q...
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am Q said it is derived from nyo ze so and that piece in the Lotus sutra...but this was always a piece to do with Sunyata.
According to the Lotus Sutra, all beings possess these 10 Suchnesses, including Buddhas. Therefore we possess the same qualities of the Buddha, just as the Buddha possess the same qualities as us, and all beings in the 10 realms. This is the connection I think you are missing

The further connection between the 10 Worlds and the 10 Suchnesses is seen in the Three Realms of Existence, again on my website.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am Never before Tien Tai the great did anyone discuss this as a ten world ichinen sanzen anything
No, that is because it was created by Zhiyi.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am other wise it is just theory made up by some guy and hung the Lotus sutra on it to give it some sort of weight in who they are presenting it to...
It is a theory, but it does have basis on scripture, but it is an interpretation. Like Malcolm pointed out, theories appear in all schools from numerous masters. That doesn't mean they are not important, but it does mean they are open to debate and disagreement.
Minobu wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:52 am it's odd but i believe Tien Tai the great was handing in some theory to the emperor at his request but died before finishing it.
Ichinen sanzen is an important theory within Tiantai/Tendai Buddhism, and has numerous connections with other doctrine and practices. Personally I believe the most important doctrine in Tendai is the Three Truths, which I feel can be seen echoed throughout Tiantai/Tendai Buddhism, including within ichinen sanzen. However I'm sure there are others who'll disagree.

I think, also, it is important to understand that the exact number isn't important here. The importance is in the mutual possession, which is from the Lotus Sutra, Hoben chapter.

I think, again, I must stress that Tiantai doesn't just base his understanding of the Lotus Sutra on just the Lotus Sutra. This is why I feel it is important to have a good understanding of Buddha Dharma to be able to understand both the Lotus Sutra and Zhiyi. Without that foundation, we are lost in a thicket of views.

Gassho,
Seishin
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